Modern vs Classical Dressage - Why is it so bad for a system to evolve?

Katherine F · Well Schooled

Modern vs Classical Dressage - Why is it so bad for a system to evolve?

myvanya · Yearling

Personally, I have no inherent issue with evolution of methods as long as it as a change that improves the horse and is consistent with the goals of dressage. I think that what I take issue with is more the training techniques and developments that do not seem to be fully thought out and as such don't seem to achieve their desired end goal with the same effectiveness as the classical methods or are not beneficial to the horse's long term well being. I want to see good solid (not anecdotal) evidence something works in the manner someone says it does before I will trust it. Show me the "why" behind the method.

So I suppose it depends on precisely what it would be that you are referencing, but as for me, if you show me the why behind it, proof that it works and doesn't harm the horse in any way, and someone respected, showing at high levels doing well who uses the method and I will probably be open to using whatever method it is.

spirithorse · Advanced

Modern competitive dressage is not dressage.
Classical dressage is what the FEI Rules of Dressage were written to emulate.
Evolve means bettering, yet modern dressage is destroying the very essence of the horse.

Not one horse and rider combination at WEG presented themselves according to the very specific descriptions contained in the rules.
Example: the snaffle bit must be the primary bit of contact.....egads, the curb has become the anchor in order to not allow the horses to move freely.

The fundamental requirement of all the movements is nose in front of the vertical and poll as the highest point at all times. If this prerequiste is not met, then the movements cannot be attained as described.

One can clearly see that the fundamentals of dressage are left back at the barn for FEI level competitors.

DressageLeggy · Yearling

spirithorse wrote:

Modern competitive dressage is not dressage.
Classical dressage is what the FEI Rules of Dressage were written to emulate.
Evolve means bettering, yet modern dressage is destroying the very essence of the horse.

Not one horse and rider combination at WEG presented themselves according to the very specific descriptions contained in the rules.
Example: the snaffle bit must be the primary bit of contact.....egads, the curb has become the anchor in order to not allow the horses to move freely.

The fundamental requirement of all the movements is nose in front of the vertical and poll as the highest point at all times. If this prerequiste is not met, then the movements cannot be attained as described.

One can clearly see that the fundamentals of dressage are left back at the barn for FEI level competitors.

So you're telling me my coach can't ride?? Lol.

I agree with the OP. Technology in our equipment has evolved, technology in our training methods (ie the internet and free exchange of information, not to mention slow motion) has evolved and our horses have evolved! No longer are TBs the norm in the international dressage ring - dressage has its own horses now that are bred for the sport.

As long as the coaches and riders continue keep the horse in the highest regard and continue to practice classical, functional equitation and basics the sport will continue to thrive. Of course some will choose to break these rules and soon fall out of favour and take up reining.

spirithorse · Advanced

Change the rules to make the mistakes correct

Coltysheart · Yearling

RE: Modern vs Classical Dressage - Why is it so bad for a system to evolve?

DressageLeggy · Yearling

spirithorse wrote:

Training methodology can evolve, however, dressage as a competitive discipline has specific mandated prerequisites, which if violated do not allow for the CORRECT presentation of the tests and thus evolution would require regression in order to make the incorrect as the correct.

Dressage is not a stand alone discipline...dressage is a process of achievement in horse and rider relationship.

Dressage as a discipline originates completely in the military cavalry schools of ancient times.

The movements we ascribe to in 'dressage' are nothing more than the movements that horses do on their own untrained by mankind.

It was ancient cavalrymen who established the 'aids' in order to facilitate mass movements in unison by cavalry troops.

Dressage as a competition began to come into fruition in medival times at the tournements.

Dressage is not a stand alone discipline, it is a part of true horsemanship no matter the venue at which one schools or rides or competes.

Critique means: a critical essay or analysis
Criticism means: finding fault

Judging is criticism; what is expressed by all members of a forum is their individual critique. We as riders should prefer an indepth analysis rather than a personal judgment.

The FEI Rules of Dressage Articles 401 through 418 were written in order to produce 'classical dressage' results in the competition arena. These are the 'mandated' prerequisites in order for the horse to meet the standards of the tests.

Those who choose to 'allow' the competitive dressage rider to violate these prerequisites are doing a great injustice to the horses and dressage as a whole.

We humans have this rampant arrogance to change things that we disagree with. That is clearly visible with dressage in the competitive arena.

The competitive riders are now being encouraged to present their horses in frames that are not 'mandated' by the rules. The encouragement arises from the unreasonable high scores being issued by certain judges who are not adhering to the 'mandated' prerequisites.

I was previously unaware of the conspiracy by the FEI to endorse poor riding. Perhaps because it doesn't exist?

Robert Dover, 6 time Olympian for the US team (meaning a lot of FEI judges like him and his riding) does not allow his riders to use whips. To watch him ride is to see harmony as he gets the most out of horses, no matter how talented, using tact and kindness.
I fail to see how any of his training methods are against classical principles. He wins at competitions and so do his students. So if judges are so biased toward liking poor riding and abusive training methods, how do you explain this?

spirithorse · Advanced

The mis-use of the CURB is destroying dressage

USDF Connection October 2010:
In contrast, Fore says, the curb bit's sole function should be to remind the horse to keep his jaw relaxed and to stay sensitive to the rider's hand.

"The mere weight of the curb bit together with the weight of the rein effects a gentle pressure, even when the rider is not putting pressure on the curb rein," Fore explains. "The weight of the bit and the horse being in front of the vertical will see to that. This pressure will be lighter than any action of the rider's hands, so you must allow the curb bit to do its own job without much interference."

Constant pressure on the curb is a no-no because it creates resistance. "If you use the curb for a reason, you must release as soon as you feel the horse yield the slightest bit; you must learn to feel what is happening," Fore says.
===========================================================
Artilce 416.2 Submission states;The main contact with the horse’s mouth must be through the snaffle bit.
Article 417-c Collection states; It is distinguished by the neck being raised without restraint, forming a harmonious curve from the withers to the poll, which is the highest point, with the nose slightly in front of the vertical.

Neither one of these very clearly stipulated and mandated descriptions are being met as a consistant pattern throughout the entire GP tests. Therefore, the descriptions that apply to how the horse will appear in each movement cannot be fully met.

The words of Lilo Fore are not being manifested at GP International competitions. The curb bit has become the primary bit in violation of the rules.

One can clearly see the angles of the curb bit shanks, wherein, there is application of pressures to the horses' mouths in a consistant manner.

-- Edited by spirithorse on Monday 25th of October 2010 04:13:13 PM

dbliron · Advanced

It looks to me like Mr. Buck has a new ID....

Geoffrey Pannell · Well Schooled

Yes, and it seems he can talk the talk , but he still hasn't shown us he can walk the walk

. What Mr Buck seems to miss is that we are all a little jaded with his constant negitivity, and being told that we are abusing our horses if they aren't going in the exact manner and frame every step. PERSPECTIVE. I ride my horses simpatheticly,they don't always stay in the frame I want, I don't punish them for that, I mearly ride them up to a contact and let them find the comfort zone according to their level of training aww

.

spirithorse · Advanced

Geoffrey Pannell wrote:

Yes, and it seems he can talk the talk , but he still hasn't shown us he can walk the walk . What Mr Buck seems to miss is that we are all a little jaded with his constant negitivity,

Mr Panell:
I am not jading anyone. If you do not like the FEI rules the quit dressage! The top competitors are the role models for the up and coming and as such should ride the rules.
The way you present your personal attacks of my stance, it is apparent that the rules mean nothing to you.
I placed the example of the curb bit and I stand by it. You sir show your disdain for the rules by your personal attack of my opinion which is predicated upon the rules.

As for walking the walk sir, your website shows you teach children. That is a great thing because children need teachers.
What children do not need sir, is for those teachers to display a lack of integrity by their use of the the Internet to bash someone they do not know or have any knowledge of.

I have posted videos of the starting of a horse and took the critiques of many. I have ridden for several qualified individuals who say I teach traditional though my presentation is different.

So please refrain from replying to anything I post, because you cannot do so without a personal attack.

Nikki Salo · Grand Prix

Hi everybody, just a reminder to keep everything friendly please. This is a good topic and we'd like to keep it going, but without the personal attacks or the feeling of being personally attacked. Everybody has their own opinions, ideas and ways of living. This can be a benefit as we all bring something different to the table that we can all learn from. Lets keep this topic open so we can continue to learn from it.

-- Edited by Nikki Salo on Monday 25th of October 2010 10:40:34 PM

spirithorse · Advanced

Nikki

Thank you for the great post!

Evolve means: develope gradually by a natural process

If we apply the literal meaning of the word to dressage, how can one say that diminishing the clarity of the rules by allowing the very foundation of competitive dressage to be in a degenerative state is evolving?

The extreme overuse of the curb bit is the primary example of the total willingness to ignore the very essence of dressage. If dressage was evolving, then FEI would simply open up the competitions to simple snaffles and any form of bitless bridles. Dressage does not evolve when its foundation is in the use of the cavesson with reins but yet demands a double bitted bridle in the end. That is not evolving.

Jackie Cochran · Advanced

This is a cultural phenomenon. It is happening in all the types of American show competition. It does not matter what saddle/bit/bitless you use.
This is a periodic cultural phenomenon. I have read equivalent discussions coming up in the equestrian literature covering centuries.
To ride a horse at speed the rider must be bold. To ride a horse at speed in the most efficient seat requires even more boldness. It appears that there are very few bold riders. The non-bold enough riders let their instincts take over.
It takes a bold rider to ride a tall, athletic horse in a freely moving manner. The power of the levers in the horse's legs requires bold riding to go with the horse.
Periodically non-bold riders take over. This happens in all varieties of horsemanship. Non-bold riders tend to ride with their horses behind the bit, it is just easier when you are overmounted. The movement is not as powerful, the stride is shorter, the push from the hind legs is less, and it is just easier to ride.
Until the past few decades it was always recommended that people ride a horse of suitable size, short people on short horses, fat people on broad horses, tall thin people on TB, ASB, half-breds, and dressage people on Iberians or hot bloods.
If people ride suitably sized horses they can ride better than on an over-sized horse for the size of the rider.

DressageLeggy · Yearling

Geoffrey Pannell wrote:

Yes, and it seems he can talk the talk , but he still hasn't shown us he can walk the walk . What Mr Buck seems to miss is that we are all a little jaded with his constant negitivity, and being told that we are abusing our horses if they aren't going in the exact manner and frame every step. PERSPECTIVE. I ride my horses simpatheticly,they don't always stay in the frame I want, I don't punish them for that, I mearly ride them up to a contact and let them find the comfort zone according to their level of training.

But you're obviously cranking on the curb bit (lol). Because that's what every dressage rider at every horse show does now, don't ya know?

(I agree with your entire post)

spirithorse · Advanced

Jackie:
Superb analysis.
That hits the nail on the head. What is being shown is not so bold riders on bold horses........................ biggrin

May I quote you?

Jackie Cochran · Advanced

Sure you can quote me Spirithorse. This is by no means an original observation!
By the way, I am NOT talking about cowardice. It takes bravery for a non-bold rider to even consider riding a horse, and it takes even more bravery for a non-bold rider to get up on a horse which is too big and powerful. As a non-bold rider myself I know this is true.

spirithorse · Advanced

I understand your position.
Cowardice really would not be relevant when sitting on the back of a horse.
From my racetrack experiences, we referenced it as timid riding, not willing to really let the horse produce. It is difficult for some folks to be willing to unleash the energy they sit upon.....no matter whether racing or dressage and that is understandable.
Being able to attain that fine silken thread of release and control is a most difficult task.