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Post Info TOPIC: Shoes vs barefoot trimming?


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Date: Oct 22, 2010
Shoes vs barefoot trimming?
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Are you a believer in barefoot trimming?

What are the pros and cons of each side of the arguement?

Do you believe barefoot results in better movement?

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Lauren & Lorenzo
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Yearling

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Date: Oct 22, 2010
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It depends on the horse and the moment wink.gif

I think it is less a matter of belief than evaluating what each horse needs. One of my horses is barefoot right now. The other is very much not (he has wedge pads and shoes on the hinds and egg bars on the fronts), but he was barefoot while it made sense for him to be. There are so many variables in that decision I feel it is best to educate yourself and have a farrier/trimmer you trust to help you and educate you further. But...as they say...two horse people....three opinions

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Yearling

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Date: Oct 22, 2010
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I think barefoot is always worth a try. If your horse is lame, what do you have to lose by trying a natural approach? If you do try barefoot, I would suggest working with a farrier who can provide an educated barefoot trim.

I'm not saying there's not a place for corrective shoeing, but I do believe there's a movement towards looking to nature for the best practices for keeping horses. In my mind, that's a good thing!



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Yearling

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Date: Oct 22, 2010
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Absolutely! Shoeing a horse for rehabilitative purposes or performance purposes does not make sense when you learn about how a healthy hoof works. "Sound hooves are not necessarily healthy, but healthy hooves are always sound" (I wish I could remember who said that).
Anyhow, without trying to upset anyone, what I'm trying to say is that a shoe interferes 100% with a hoofs natural movement and shock absorbtion. A shoed hoof transfers 3 times the amount of concussion through a horses leg at a walk on concrete than a correctly balanced and trimmed barefoot hoof at a hard trot on the same surface.
Hooves work something like auxilliary pumps for the heart, only three other organs recieve more blood, shoeing cuts circulation off to the hoof and the lower 3/4 parts of the leg. Feel the hooves of a shoed and a barefoot horse, the barefoot horse will be warm, the shoed horse cold. 
But as someone stated, do your research, be informed, attend hoof clinics, talk to people.
More importantly, incorrect trim practices whether "natural" or by a "farrier" have to be done correctly to either promote a healthy hoof (which takes time almost a year in some cases or longer) or maintain a healthy hoof. Trims/Shoeing should NEVER be more than 4 weeks apart. Hooves are like our nails they need regular and constant trimming, if you have long ones think about how it feels when you catch it, now imagine standing on it, hurts, don't it? 

cheers :)


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c.s.herrenbrueck


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Date: Oct 22, 2010
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I am a barefoot trimmer and a believer in shoeless.
My friends that are endurance racers, some use shoes and some use the tennies for horses, but they all barefoot when not racing.
The problem will be in finding a barefoot trimmer not associated with the new gimmick methodologies.   Cavalry barefoot trimming is the best.



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Yearling

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Date: Oct 22, 2010
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I read a book just a couple of months ago, and barefoot v.s. shoes was a huge topic the author discussed. I can't remember the name of the book exactly, but I'm pretty sure it was "The Soul of A Horse" or something along those lines.

Anyway, the author was very pro-barefoot trim. He had found great success with a wild(?) barefoot trim farrier. His horses had rock hard feet and the hooves were healthy. It also said that some lame horses got miraculously better after going barefoot. He also made his horses' pastures hilly and rocky as that was what horses experienced in the wild.
Shoes on the other hand, as he explained, caused lack of circulation in the hoof and because of that he really was harsh on the people who do shoe.

In my opinion, it depends on the horse and their needs. Also the situation they find themselves in.

But I think barefoot is really worth a shot and I'd go in that direction before I'd try shoes.wink

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Date: Oct 24, 2010
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I chose my Arab gelding a year ago and a big part of that choice was because he was barefoot (and he was gorgeous). He had been barefoot for three years but often went with boots probably because his feet weren't conditioned consistently. I also inherited his hoof trimmer, who had transitioned him from shoes and taught him to like it, which apparently he didn't like shoeing too much. I had a lot of learning to do, but finally figured out the diet and conditioning that was right for him. He has been crushing rocks on the trails this spring and all summer and I have thoroughly enjoyed getting up in the hills and getting to know him in the process. I would not put shoes on him for anything, I have researched how important it is to his feet to be iron free. If he ran into problems I would use booties. This fall he did go tenerfooted because the pasture was too rich for him, but he recovered and was back on the trail in a couple of weeks. If I had had booties, I think we might not have needed the time off, but it all worked out. For those who, like me went barefoot in summer as kids, they will understand how your feet get conditioned to the surface required. At the start of summer, we were pretty ouchy on gravel, but by the end of the summer we ran over anything. Same principle works for horses, except their foot health absolutely depends on not wearing shoes. To me barefoot just seemed like common sense. I never guessed it was like a religion that you believed in or didn't.

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Date: Oct 25, 2010
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Interesting points of view, everyone!

I can see barefoot seems to be the trend and with good reason too.

My boy struggles with the river sand in our arena, which basically sands his hooves down very quickly if he's ridden in it more than twice a week. For this reason, I have had to have him shod.

He is currently wearing in his third set but honestly seems to travel better with them and he doesnt seem impaired by them and is completely sound.

I have only recently been reading up about barefoot trims but my farrier is 100% against them and made me feel immensely guilty about having Lorenzo's shoes removed several months ago, claiming that he would go lame. The rate to which his hooves wore down was incredible.

Are their any additives I can put in to Lorenzo feed to strengthen the walls of his hooves?

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Date: Oct 25, 2010
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If you are interested in going barefoot you would first need to find a hoof trimmer with an understanding of barefoot and plenty of training and experience. Naturally a farrier who has only done shoes for forty years isn't necessarily going to endorse barefoot because it's a different approach. A Barefoot trimmer could guide you best as to what to do to prepare your horse with diet and conditioning for a sandy surface. It might depend what surface your horse is on during the 23 hours per day that he is not on the sand. If it's damp, spongy, mucky clay or wet luch pasture, these conditions can make barefoot trickier. If you are using too much grain or less desirable grains, or for some horses too much alfalfa, this can cause a weaker hoof and frog health. My guy does best on just grassy hay, no grain, no lush pasture, and a usually hard dry lot for a surface. Since it is clay, and can get mucky, if I was going to add anything I would add good sized rocks to toughen his feet more. The supplement I provide is a combo of black oil sunflower seeds, wheat germ, flax seed, and a very little bit of oats. That's just what works for him, your Barefoot advisor can look at what you have available and make some suggestions since most Barefoot trimmers see diet and conditioning as key to the process. It's possible that with the right diet, the key for your sand conditioning is how you do it. Twice a week for longer may be less effective for conditioning than daily shorter workout until the hoofs toughen. Or maybe you need to do some walking trotting on rocks or roadsdaily to condition. If your horse is stall confined or in a very small turn out, to soft turn out, the exposure to urine and droppings, dampness could be messing up the condition of his feet, so just a larger lot, or better drainage, more rocks, may be the answer.

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Date: Oct 25, 2010
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I should also add that the first several months after shoes are pulled require more careful attention because the hooves have to recover from having been shod. So what I can do with my guy after four years barefoot, starting up in spring, would be a little more aggressive than what you can do with your horse. Many people pull shoes in fall and don't ride much in winter, so that would be the logical place to start. I have noticed this fall, several of my friends have pulled shoes for winter, their horses are on R&R, my guy is still out there crushing rocks on the trail because I can ride him anytime as long as I'm fairly consistent about it. Hooves grow more slowly in late fall and winter, so that's the time I would say might be trickier to switch from shoes to increase riding on sand. Wild horses live in all kinds of conditions all year round and somehow manage to maintain very healthy feet regardless of rocks, sand, or whatever, so the Barefoot model is trying to accomodate the natural conditioning of a wild horse. Humans just have to figure out how not to mess up a perfectly good system that took millions of years to evolve.

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Yearling

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Date: Oct 25, 2010
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I have pulled my mare's shoes, and plan to use boots, although I'm not satisfied with the boots I have tried so far. My farrier suggested formaldehyde painted on the soles for a few weeks if she's ouchy. She says it toughens up the hoof. Has anyone heard of that?

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Date: Oct 25, 2010
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I have heard about putting various things on hooves to toughen them. Are you  aiming to transition to Barefoot, or are you just resting from shoes? Is your farrier familiar with barefoot principles if that's where you are heading? My Barefoot trimmer advises nothing be put on the hoof either for water proofing, conditioning, or to toughen. But again my gelding already has good barefeet. I have heard some things that are recommended either soften the hoof too much or the chemicals interfere with some function in the tissue, so you have to be careful. Different matter if you are treating thrush however, but it doesn't sound like you are dealing with that, but often foot problems are really just underlying low-grade thrush problems.

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Date: Oct 25, 2010
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In response to sandy ground/barefoot question I came upon this note:
Some transitioning horses go sore on deep sand or very soft arena footing. This is because the soft landing doesn't provide enough concussion to flex the hoof, so that there is reduced circulation and the feet become uncomfortably congested. The best solution I can suggest is to ride at least 10 minutes on firm ground, before and after the arena work, to get lots of circulation inside the hooves.
It's part of a longer excellent article:
http://www.barefoothorse.com/barefoot_Transition.html

Another article mentioned that very deep turf can stress the tendons on a horse especially if their heels are already too high as it forces the toe into the ground more. I may not be explaining this very well.

The structure of the hoof is so complex, people are just beginning to figure out what function each of these structures has, and how they all work together including how the circulation and digestion can be related to hoof health. What farriers knew years ago, and even ten years ago is still evolving.

The question that comes to my mind is, if a farrier says that taking the shoes off a horse will make him go lame, what are the shoes doing to the horse that would make their foot so unhealthy that that would happen?





-- Edited by Marlene on Monday 25th of October 2010 03:40:18 PM

-- Edited by Marlene on Monday 25th of October 2010 03:42:43 PM

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Yearling

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Date: Oct 28, 2010
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sedonasilver wrote:


My boy struggles with the river sand in our arena, which basically sands his hooves down very quickly if he's ridden in it more than twice a week. For this reason, I have had to have him shod.

Are their any additives I can put in to Lorenzo feed to strengthen the walls of his hooves?






Hi, it's odd about your horses hooves wearing like that. I would consider his diet as the main source for his problems. Horses seem to do best when fed the right grass hays (no alfalfa and other high protein and suger types of grass) and have 24 hour turn out. If you need to add something to his diet consider mixing in a few teaspoons of crushed flax seed to some beet pulp once a day (the flax has biotin in it which strengthens the hair and hoof).

Next, check out the links page at this site: thehorseshoof.com

You can find some great information through this site.

More importantly - Don't ever let anyone make you feel guilty about asking questions or wanting to change the way YOUR horse is cared for as long as it is an informed path.

Cheers and good luck smile.gif

Char

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Date: Oct 29, 2010
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Wow, thank you everyone - I can see many people are very passionate about barefoot hooves and have some fabulous suggestions about how to deal with the issues I'm having with Lorenzo's feet.

To answer a few questions, in summer he spends 10 hours a day on nice sold ground with rye grass to graze on. He is given good quality hay in the morning with a scoop of chaff and lucerne. At night he has a mixture of chaff, lucerne, millmix, sunflower seeds and limestone powder dampened down with molassas water.

At night, he does stand in sand in his stable too, now that I think about it!

I will have a look in to the information provided and check out some of the websites as well.

When it comes to the crunch, Lorenzo will likely be ridden/live on the same surface for a long while yet so if I cant change that, then I'll have to strengthen his feet :)

If anyone else has more information please keep posting. I'm sure there are many riders out there who will benefit from a discussion such as this.

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Yearling

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Date: Oct 29, 2010
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Try to cut out all sugars in his diet, molasses can cause problems. I don't know about rye grass, but if it's very lush then it'll be high in sugars as well. Horses aren't meant to eat rich diets, they actually do best on high fibre, low protein, no sugar diets. If you want to do feed, beet pulp without added molasses is the best (they take out all the sugars) it's very high in forage fibre for them and doesn't increase they're blood glucose levels (yay!), plus it manages to meet almost all of their nutritional needs (yay!).
Blah blah blah listen to me go on wink


Charsmile



-- Edited by csherrenbrueck on Friday 29th of October 2010 10:04:35 AM

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Yearling

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For my horse that is barefoot right now, as he is out on very rough ground all the time, my farrier/trimmer leaves some of the sole he might otherwise remove. He does this so that he has the extra protection and because on the course ground (sand and small rocks) the horse wears his feet down- sometimes the tenderness comes from the feet wearing down too fast.

As far as supplements for the feet, biotin in doses of 15mg or more has been shown in studies (double blind scientific studies- I apologize I don't have the links at the moment) to be beneficial to the overall health of the hooves. Another one that shows evidence of being beneficial, though it is less studied for this use at the moment and I don't know what dosage is best for hoof benefits as it is more commonly used for joints, is MSM. I would suggest reviewing your horses diet as well. I honestly am not super familiar with much of what you feed since feed types vary by region quite a bit and even from barn to barn (one of my horses gets grass hay, alfalfa, beet pulp, safe choice "grain," and ultium, along with various supplements including one for his feet as an example) If you have someone who can help you review the info and determine what your horses caloric, protein, fat, and vitamin/mineral needs are that would be a great starting point as that can help in a variety of areas- not just feet.

Your horse is very lucky that he has you!

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A decent quality grass hay has plenty of biotin in it, and protein as well (except for mares in foal or nursing). I think lucerne is another name for alfalfa, which may be too rich, so replacing that with hay might help. I just couldn't believe that the alfalfa I gave my guy wasn't necessary and kept addding it back to his diet, and then screwing him up by doing that.some other horses might be okay with it, but my barefoot trimmer let me learn the hard way. Check that your chaff, or other supplements don't have added molasses, not the best for foot/digestive health. There are non-molasses supplements out there for vitamins and minerals, but horses love the taste of it so manufacturers like to put it in. If you can find a tougher (more concussive) surface for his paddock arrangement this could make a huge difference, and migh offset the sandy exercise arena, because that's where he's spending most of his time.
I recall also reading that sand can work into the little crevices in their hoof and may be a problem in that way, but I don't know how informed that was, you'd have to ask a barefoot farrier. I noticed that over the summer of trail riding on rocks, a lot of these little nooks and crannies sealed up on my guys hoof, but not quite to the degree that they do on a wild horse hoof. Again that transition period is a slow process, but does eventually improve all these things.

-- Edited by Marlene on Friday 29th of October 2010 05:40:38 PM

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I think it all comes down to understanding your horse, and trusting your farrier.

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For the person who was going to use boots:

I wholeheartedly support Soft Ride boots. They are on the web. I have a large mare who went laminitic with huge rotation. We used the boots while we were bringing her along, we use them now if we poultice her (about a 5 second exercise), they have therapeutic inserts of varying types. It was our vet that recommended them to bring her through the worst of it and it worked like a charm. We're on our second pair with her, and I might get a set for my main mare to have on hand, particularly if we decide to try pulling her shoes for the winter again. And, as a bonus, the company is VERY easy to deal with.

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I will definately be looking in to how I feed Lorenzo, as I think there have been some good suggestions here.

Plus its important to review your horses feed a few times a year taking in to consideration workload, seasonal grazing and nutrients as well as your horses general condition etc so i think the time has arrived, especially since hay is getting hard to come by now (my agistment has just gone up $15 a week.)

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Lauren & Lorenzo
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Well Schooled

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Date: Nov 8, 2010
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For the person with the boots. Make sure that they fit, that is the biggest problem with them is that they can be difficult to fit to a horse's feet.

I must go for whatever is best for the horse at that moment. My father is a farrier and has worked with all types of horses, disciplines, and problems. He has always put the welfare of the horse first. But he says that if the horse has good, strong, tough feet they can survive barefoot just fine. Also many times corrective shoeing can be done, and in time they can go barefoot again. Shoes are ment to protect a horse's foot, and when they have caulks, studs, or borium nails added it's for traction in muddy, icy, or competition cirumstances. As horse lovers, we find that there is nothing wrong with trying different ideas or methods for the benefit of the horse and horse owner. As long as it works best for your horse that is all that matters.

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