Behind the bit

Jackie Cochran · Advanced

Behind the bit

Barbara F · Grand Prix

It depends why he's going there, Jackie.

Different scenarios:

Behind the vertical but still on the contact could mean any number of things, each with it's own response...
1. The horse is leaning on the bit, curling his nose to his chest and running while the rider "water skis" on the reins.
2. The horse is fatiguing and drops his poll, while still staying on the contact.
3. The horse is being asked by the rider to go extra deep for a few minutes to work out an issue.
4. The horse is doing a warm-up or cool down overly round and deep, again to address a specific issue.

Behind the vertical and behind the contact/spitting out the bit...
In this case, behind the vertical AND behind the contact is also behind the leg. This could be for a number of reasons including reluctance on the horse to stretch over his back, reluctance to do the work asked of him, no impulsion (i.e. no desire to go forward), harsh hands, an ill-fitting bit or saddle, or overly tight noseband.

All of the above ask for different solutions, and some of the above scenarios are not necessarily wrong.

Now that I've made this all complicated, which scenarios were you thinking of?

-- Edited by Barbara F on Sunday 14th of November 2010 08:43:09 PM

Jackie Cochran · Advanced

Thank you Barbara! This is the best analysis I have ever read about the variations of BTV and behind the bit, and I have read quite a few.

Behind the bit but still on contact. I find No. 2 hard to feel with my hands now (my MS), though I used to able to feel it, and I remember it as a sort of squishy feel. The immediate cure was legs, the long term cure was schooling so the horse got fit enough not to tire.

I know absolutely nothing about using behind the vertical as physical therapy. If I got a horse requiring such physical therapy my cure would be to go back to where the problem started and figure out what part of the conditioning process I had neglected. It may not be as quick a cure, but it does address the holes in the training/physical conditioning.

I do not ride dressage. The Forward Seat was developed to move over country, jumping any obstacles at appropriate speed, sometimes very fast. Since the horse is often out in the open we FS riders depend on having an obediant horse. This obedience is formed during training, and at speed in the gallop/jumping position is largely dependent on the horse's obedience to the bit or whatever bitless bridle one uses (with the legs used mostly for impulse.) If a horse ridden at speed cross-country goes BTV/behind the bit he is 1) evading the hand aids which 2) removing control of the hind legs from the rider (speed control) while 3) preventing the horse from seeing where he is going, which can be 4) extremely dangerous while galloping fast and jumping obstacles cross-country, especially over unfamiliar ground.

The vast majority of the books by experienced horsemen/trainers/riders I've read state that a horse that is BTV/behind the bit is dangerous for the rider because the horse can take control and effectively resist every demand of his rider. If the horse is also in a panicked state this can end up in disaster. It is just SO MUCH SAFER for riders to nip BTV/behind the bit in the bud. If the rider's hands are too harsh, work on the hands or go bitless and still work on the rider's hands. Harsh hands are often indicative of an insecure seat--so work on the seat and its foundation in FS, the lower legs. If the horse gets tired, well, back off and work on your horse's physical condition until he can do the work without leaning on the bit. This gives the rider a chance to go back in the training program and fix the holes. Each horse is an individual and the holes can appear anywhere, no trainer is perfect and unless he/she fixes the holes problems will re-occur throughout training.

So, my immediate action to BTV/behind the bit is using my legs as vigorously as need while AT THE SAME TIME advancing my hands and lightening my contact to a pressure that the horse consents to for contact (as proven by not going BTV/behind the bit.) Then I go back in my training, to mainly work on the hind end, working on developing the swing/engagement of the hind legs until the horse has the physical condition to keep the contact I desire. During this retraining I also ask my riding teachers to get after me for faults in my position and riding because I am obviously doing something WRONG which caused the problem in the first place.

This is how I ride. I know other people ride and train differently than I do. We have different goals. My goal is a free-striding horse who covers ground efficiently and safely, while remaining obedient to both hand and leg and responding quickly to the aids. This is the type of horse I feel safe on.

spirithorse · Advanced

It is called the vibration technique...you alternately vibrate the reins while lightly giving some release and when the horse responds take up the contact you require.

Barbara F · Grand Prix

Jackie, for someone who doesn't ride dressage, you sure are doing all the right things that a good dressage rider would do! "fix it behind" and fix it forward" should be everybody's mantra and you are doing just that!

I'll give you a quick example of riding a horse too deep to help with a particular issue.
My last horse was quite spooky when I got him. He was solid in general, but there were things that he consistently spooked at no matter what I or any of my coaches did, and I ride with superb coaches.

He was also the type of horse who, once he thought something was scary, he continued to spook.

Both of my coaches, in two different parts of the country, gave me the identical solution - anticipate the spook and ride him overly deep and in a shoulder-in or shoulder-fore BEFORE you feel him tightening and wanting to raise his head and go sideways. The system worked and, although he was still looking at things with his eyes, he stayed reasonably relaxed and round and continued on his way.

To be very clear, I am tiny and ride with a simple snaffle, so there is zero way could have forced him into any kind of submission. I just anticipated the issue and fixed it before it began.

On another note, sometimes, the horse just comes a bit behind the vertical on it's own while you are warming up. I am attaching a photo of myself riding him. You can see that he is slightly behind the vertical in this case, but extremely relaxed and on a steady contact. This was taken during my warm up and in the next couple of steps, I would have had him step under more, drop the middle of his neck and stretch out. He would have easily done so, as he is so relaxed and attentive.
http://www.barnmice.com/photo/1773158:Photo:922?context=user

Jackie Cochran · Advanced

All the original FS developers were trained in dressage. They took the dressage techniques that fostered free forward movement and used them in the FS training/control systems. Good riding is good riding.

If a rider can do a good shoulder-in on a horse properly trained to the shoulder-in this can be a good way of preventing a shy, repeatedly mentioned in the literature. Unfortunately for me I am not that good yet so I have to come up with other solutions to this type of repeated shying. The few times I tried the shoulder-in method I ended up with a horse imitating a pretzel, due to my deficiencies as a rider I am sure! You on the other hand are a good enough rider for this method to work. Good for you! Maybe someday I'll become as good as you are.

Your picture is a good example of the "squishy" feeling I used to get, where there is contact but it feels slightly different. Your follow up is, of course, correct. In my system of riding I take this as an indication that the horse needs to stretch his neck out further to get kinks out. Your method, with sympathetic hands, can also get the kinks out. Either way we both are aiming for a happy comfortable horse who moves to the best of his ability while keeping good, responsive contact.

Isn't riding great!