Feeding to gain weight - not heat!

sedonasilver · Advanced

Feeding to gain weight - not heat!

justice · Grand Prix

'Bran' is the Kiss of Death for weight gain/water retention, or any other reason in a horse's dietary life, jmo. A litre of it? Cheap fix that will create expensive fixes later. I know others might feel differently but this has been MY experience. If the energy expenditure has increased (relocating IS stressful), so should the grain AND hay. Stay away from oils as the horse has no gall bladder to process it well. I am not sure where you are so am not able to suggest a specific grain but you might want to look into a product called Cool Calories (Dover Saddlery here in the states carries it. SmartPak, also stateside, carries weight gain products). Check a better tack shop for supplements and info, then go to your VET, repeat: VETERINARIAN, and chat about how to proceed. Protien is ok in reasonable amounts, it's the carbs/sugars that can be "inspiring". How he is ridden will definitely be an influential factor in muscle development. How old is this horse?

No offense intended toward the barnmanager/owner but we all like to get our money's worth out of our products and maintenance (a common facet of boarding/agisting facilities that I personally don't care for if the horse is being short-changed). Do not let a BO/BM or ANYbody else dictate (advising is fine) your horse's diet, unless you TRUST them with your pone's life, literally.

-- Edited by justice on Monday 10th of January 2011 07:16:58 AM

-- Edited by justice on Monday 10th of January 2011 07:18:11 AM

-- Edited by justice on Monday 10th of January 2011 07:20:03 AM

-- Edited by justice on Monday 10th of January 2011 07:20:36 AM

Jackie Cochran · Advanced

Whenever I needed to put weight on a horse I added corn (maize) to their feed, starting with a handful a feed and building up to a pound morning and night as needed, like in the middle of winter. Corn can be heating, but that is why you start with a handful and gradually increase it. As a side benefit horses LOVE crunching whole corn, mine would get a dreamy look while they happily crunched away.

I have had success in rebuilding muscle mass on an emaciated Arab mare in her late twenties by using hemp powder. This is a complete protein source with many biologically available amino acids, as well as essential fatty acids (including GLA, and anti-inflammatory). We used one ounce a day, added onto the Senior Feed. The BO really liked how it helped the mare (muscle mass & arthritis), and is now using it on a 34 yr. old gelding. I get my hemp powder at the local health food store.

shaiarabs · Well Schooled

increase the hay... ditch the bran.... give a good mineral supplement and oil...better yet, try and have him on what he was on before....

Nikki Salo · Grand Prix

Hi Sedonasilver, I'll throw in my 2 cents here!

Not a huge fan of bran because it is high in phosphorous, but you mentioned feeding limestone, so if he is getting at least 2 ounces of limestone/day it should balance out the C:P ratio without ill effects, if not adding a bit of legume into the diet can be good, but you run into trouble if you'll be feeding more then 2lb/day of alfalfa/legume to a horse that isn't nursing broodmare/a racehorse.. what we think is heavy riding, really usually isn't according to a nutritionist.

If you're able to add beet pulp to the horse's diet instead of all of that bran, I'd do that instead as it is relatively cheap and high in crude protein (usually 10%) and crude fibre (usually 18%). This will add bulk through the fibre and help build muscle through the protein. Also, it is easily digested, and you can make it really soupy so you get the added benefit of bringing water into the hind gut (where fibre is processed in the horse).

I'm not a fan of corn due to mold issues, and the fact that it is a "hot feed" (highest out of grains in Mcal/kg - Mcal being megacalories), among other things. When I took nutrition, it was found that oils in the diet are processed by the horse, although at a slower rate due to the fact (as Justice mentioned) that the horse has no gall bladder, and it can take up to 6 months before 1 cup per day (not recommended to feed more then this, also it has been sighted to be useless going above this amount - no further gain to the horse) of oil starts to have an effect on the horse because the body needs to adapt to processing and utilizing it.

Great advice all the way around, this is one topic you'll get a million answers on! I'd suggest talking to a certified equine nutritionist (your veterinarian can recommend one) that isn't biased to one company, they really know their stuff!

Marlene · Advanced

My gelding can get hot with some feeds, different horses may react more to certain grains or alfalfa, so you know your horse best. So my vote goes with more hay, grassy type rather than more alfalfa, or corn. The extra chew time helps calm them I think and unless he is working hard or has other health problems will provide plenty of nutrition, given he has basic supplements.

NaturallyUnbridled · Well Schooled

Fats/oils have more calories per unit than proteins or carbohydrates. That's where you'll get the most bang for your buck. But there's lots of good advice in these other posts as well.

sedonasilver · Advanced

Hi guys, first of all, thank you all very much for your valuable input!

I understand its 'horses for courses', quite literally - what works for one might not work for another but it is still food for thought and will all go towards getting the right balance with Lorenzo.

Lorenzo is a 6 year old middle-weight type gelding. He is quite slim at the moment, but starting to get a touch ribby and is losing muscle (sigh). We have been working on top-line over the last few months and wasnt doing too badly until the move.

I will take all in to consideration - and keep checking back if anyone else would like to make a suggestion.

Off to the vet I go to find a nutritionist (my horse officially has a more sophisticated health plan than I do!)

justice · Grand Prix

My horses are ALL better cared for, and better dressed than me, for sure! I take that as a sign of genuine passion and care, SedonaS : )

Good luck with your situation, and for the sake of further learning opportunities, would you be willing to keep us up-dated?

Marlene · Advanced

I would also support a moderate supplement of oil. My guy was thin last fall, when I first got him,and spent all winter outdoors. His hoof trimmer didn't want grains because of this horse's previous history with them, so I went with an oil supplement. It actually worked a little too well, he was fat by February and then we had an unseasonably warm period and early spring. Then I had to try to reduce his weight, so we did lots of hard work in the spring summer climbing mountains. That worked really well, turned the fat to muscle and he looked great. So oil might be a good idea for your guy, just be aware not to overdo it, and you must increase very gradually, as their digestion adapts slowly to it. If you do add oil, you might need to work him more than twice a week to prevent it just going to fat though.

-- Edited by Marlene on Tuesday 11th of January 2011 09:34:43 AM

dbliron · Advanced

Hi, Sedona:

I agree - ditch the bran idea completely. Not only is it a very inefficient way to try to increase weight, it can throw the rest of the diet out of balance, and result in some very nasty consequences.

I'd be looking to increase hay until you find the amount at which he stops eating per 24 hour period, and supplement him with a good quality vitamin/mineral mix with added fat or oil. Grain is always my very last option. We are lucky here in that we have available at a reasonable cost a total ration called "Equi-Cal", which is a mix of protein, forage, and fats. This ration, added to free-choice hay, puts weight on the hardest keepers and hardest workers, without making them hot or risking colic. I don't know what you have available to you in Australia, or where you live in Australia (like us in Canada, what's available in one part of the country might be unheard of elsewhere). You may also be able to access a beet pulp/soybean meal/soybean hull mix (you soak it before feeding), which is inexpensive, easy to feed, very palatable, high in fibre, and a good source of extra calories which do not upset gut flora or create impactions.

It is unusual for horses to lose muscle mass before losing fat, unless their opportunities for exercise are suddenly restricted and/or their diets are severely lacking in protein. The protein requirements for mature horses (most WB's are not really physically mature until age 7) are pretty low, so it's unlikely that a low protein intake is the issue. If that trend continues in spite of your changes to his feed then I'd be starting with CBC panels etc. to sort out possible liver/kidney malfunctions.

sedonasilver · Advanced

Hi again everyone :)

Again, some very helpful advise - I looked in to beet-pulp as an option which seems highly recommended by many horse groups, but unfortunately we only have one product, called Speedi-Beet here in Australia which I have been told is very expensive as horse feeds go.

I was speaking with one coach about oils and she said she swears by it, and another says no way dont go near it :-\ Ah the joys of horse ownership - 2 horse people, 3 opinions!

I have enlisted the help of a nutritionist over in tasmania, which requires pasture and hay testing which in turn, determines the horses suppliment requirements. I'm off to take samples tonight after my lesson which get dried and sent off to the US of all places. Australia has many labs which are able to do the testing but its 3 times the price of sending it all the way to the US! Go figure :-\ U.S.A! U.S.A!

From what I can see, I'll need a whole lot of hay (no surprise there). Im considering changing my board to part board as I'm guessing with the nutritionists advice I will be supplying most of the feed any way (as they're not stock standard suppliments). Very excited to get started!

I'll snap some photos and post along the way to gauge the changes, which I am assured will be quite dramatic and noticable (coat colour, weight, personality, hooves, movement, energy, toning, organ/intestine function.)

justice · Grand Prix

oooo yes! Before and after pics are always good to see. Congrats on the nutritionist : )

Geoffrey Pannell · Well Schooled

Hi Lauren, There are three things that you need to think about and address that contribute to poor condition and a failure to thrive- heavy worm burden, teeth problems & poor quauity feed.
All should be considered before increasing the energy content .
Good sourses of 'cool' energy whole sunflower seeds(contain 26% fat) or copra meal (8% fat), used to replace at least half the grain ration.
If your horse is a fence walker why not put him in a paddock with his mate
for company? They are herd animals after all!
The best advice I can give you is to keep the feed ration simple, give good quality meadow hay, which should be easy to find in the West, and lots of it.
Cheers Geoffrey

Lori · Yearling

Your horse is stressed if he's walking the fence. I would look into weather you can move him to a different location or possibly in with your mom's horse. If he's happy he'll burn less calories. My horse does this as well. I've had him at many different facilities by now and if he's happy, you'd never know he walks fences but if he's not, then he turns into a nightmare. The owner of the barn where my horse is currently said she's had horses who walk the fence in one paddock but you put them in the next paddock over and they're happy. There's often no rhyme or reason to it. I would also suggest beet pulp or rice bran to put weight on your horse as well as lots of grass hay.

sedonasilver · Advanced

Hi Geoffrey, and Lori,

Thanks for the suggestions.

As for worming, Lorenzo is kept up to date with a worming paste regime, plus a yearly drench with wormer included to flush out sand and all the nasty bugs he might have picked up.

As for his teeth, I only had them done just over a month ago and all was A-okay - he only need a few small points filed.

But as for the poor quality feed, it could be that - all the more reason to switch to partboard and supply my own.

As far as putting both our boys in the same paddock, while a great, and logical suggestion, I asked a week ago and it was a great big NO from the barn manager. Apparently it puts too must stress on the pasture and she was quite firm on that. I am actually waiting for my coaches property to be finished (about 4 months) which is just around the corner, so we can move across and have a bit more freedom!

SiobhanDressage · Well Schooled

Roughage chunks/pellets.
They do wonders for my skinny Warmblood. He lost a lot of weight over the summer, but gained it all back with the roughage chunks!

http://www.agribrands.ca/Screens/RChunks.aspx

Cabby · Yearling

Hi

I have a very similar horse (he is nine and 17.2 hands) who has recently travelled from England to Spain by road and ferry. He was on a very (too strict) diet before he travelled. He lost a great deal of weight, topline and back end. Building him back up is proving a long slow job as, like you, I don´t want him heated up as it makes him impossible to ride.

One thing I really am finding helpful is sugar beet cubes which need to be soaked overnight. As they are sort of half protien and half roughage they certainly don´t heat him up and the weight is slowly going back on.Also I top dress his food with any good sunflower or vegetable oil (get him used to half a cup a day and build up his tolerance) this is full of calories but nothing in it to heat him up at all. Harry is on light excercise and slowly we are getting there.

Don´t want to worry you but the new place sounds to me to be upsetting him. How is your Mum´s horse? They sound very stingy on the food side and if there being mean about something so obvious I would worry about what was happening with things you don´t see.

Hope things improve for you.

Cabby · Yearling

Fogot to mention he is also on alfalfa pellets soaked in water and lots of good quality soft straw (he doesn´t like alfalfa grass here as it is really hard and brittle) he also gets lots of treats like dry bread from the local bakers - good for cleaning their teeth!

Marlene · Advanced

Hi Cabby,

With regard to your alfalfa hay problem. I grow alfalfa hay, you may or may not be aware that the texture depends totally of how mature it is when cut. You might be able to find a farmer who cuts earlier or irrigates (plant matures slower), or produces dairy quality alfalfa, a very high quality grade. Also, I boarded an elderly mare (29 years young) who needed some fattening, so we let her straight on the pasture to fill her face 24/7(once her digestion was accustomed to fresh grazing). But for the times when she wasn't on (just after a cutting or in very early spring) I took the coarser hay, put it in a large clear plastic recycle type bag. Gave it a big shake, and all the leaves fall off quick, the coarse stems I fed to my fat arab as filler. A little water sloshed onto it to keep the dust down and help her slop it up. She loved it. Just prepare enough for that day, alfalfa (or any feed) shouldn't sit around wet too long. If your horse has good teeth, even rough alfalfa hay is very nutritious, or a good balancer for a grass hay diet. A horse on alfalfa will need more water and will pee more, but probably poop smaller volume.

-- Edited by Marlene on Saturday 14th of April 2012 11:55:16 AM

Cabby · Yearling

Thanks Marlene
Good advice! I have plenty of time during the day so am quite prepared to mess about with the grass soaking etc. Problem is still that one hour light hack out and his weight appears to drop next day even though I give him extra after excercise. At present it´s one step forward and one back!
Not to worry, I shall persevere.

deb · Well Schooled

Hi

I have had many horses over the years and have rehabed a large number of them. I have fed both horses for racing purposes and for show purposes, as well as horses for pasture only purposes.

Over the years I have found for show horses or young horses that you want to bulk up you have a few choices.

Corn can be okay, but I find cob corn to be the best, and you have to watch corn due to the high sugar content.

I don't like sweetfeed bought from the mill for any of my horses, and usually tailor feed for each individual. Sweet feed that comes from the mill is covered in molassas, and you have no way of knowing if the grain is of a top grade or not, or just 'floor sweepings'. My husband was a farm kid, and I have personally know people who worked in different mills that have told me some pretty dark tales of what goes into feed in some mills. So if you go to a sweet feed be aware you need to know the place well, also sweet feed is seriously high in sugar. I do use molassas, but I use only less than 1/2 a cup for three horses, watered down so that is very watery, and is only for flavour.

I also have reservations about beet plup. I have used it off and mostly on for 3 years, and my concern is that while some reports say the horse can digest it, other reliable sources say the horses cannot. In my experience I have seen it put on weight, but it was not right for my IR horse even though many vets/studies/feed specialists told me to use it. He gained 'water weight', he also became very gassy on it, and it did not in the end stop his colic issues. He has been much better on flax (Shine her in Canada is the name of the product), and a very small handfull of oats twice a day, with fiber nuggets a hay product making up the rest of his meals... with free choice hay at all times. My tie up horse also gained weight, but in the long run he also had issues with hind gut problems. So beware, it has lots of phosphorous, and so on, but it has it's drawbacks.

To fatten a horse up I will use fat n fibre pellets for tie up horses, with all the hay they can eat. For lean hard muscels and a great coat I use Shine, and for hard keepers that I want to have energy but not hotness, I use all the alphalpha hay they want, with grassy hay also for offer. I also like to soak hay cubes down and add just a touch of salt and molassas, horses love it and they get the extra lbs they need. I also believe as long as the horse does not have sugar issues that whole oats are the best grain feed, and have fed them for over 30 years. I do not like most processed feed as you are not getting your moneies worth, and have found that other than fat n fibre pellets you will not gain weight on them. Most of these products have too much molassas on them, and that is why horse will actually eat things that look more like dog food than something a horse should be eating. Also I will not feed anything that is dusty, or not clean looking, if oats or feed is dark, worry that is saw water when it was being cut/dried etc.

I am wondering if your horse is A not getting feed properly from this new place, and B I am also wondering if there is something there or someone that your horse is worried about, ulcers are a real possible issue here, or just high acidity in his gut due to worry or something amiss. Ulcers don't have to be present for the horse to be suffereing from an upset stomach. In my experience two things will drive weight off a horse faster than anything else... lack of good food, and worry (an underlying health issue too... but I am assuming you checked all this first)

Two things I have found for ulcer horses/asidosis horses or hind gut problem horses in general and for any horse that does not gain weight for any reason-- that seem to help and not hurt, would be all the hay they can get, that means the cleanest best quality, I really question a place that does not feed plenty of hay, hay all the time is best-- and the other things that I find helps is a product called equishure, a hind gut buffer, and plain yogurt (flavoured is okay as long as your horse has no sugar issues)

Take care good luck

deb