Have ridden in it, there are much better bitless equipment. 

Just because something is filed means nothing. Will it have merit? Based upon what? Endless suits just up the membership costs. And each type of riding has its own guidelines. Katy is right jumper use, among other ones. I have ridden without a bit in many venues for almost triple your experience time, but I also show under the rules of those individual types of riding. I have to say that of all the ways of riding without a bit, the bb is my least favorite because I think it accomplishes the least balance and interaction. Does it work for beginners to not abuse the mouth? Perhaps the valid use. Alan, perhaps will see you put out something which shows otherwise, but to date you have not. And if you want classes for bb, then start them at local shows and provide the ribbons (probably $5-10 at most) for the winners.

Well, yes, it won't change anything probably. But at least he is trying provide an alternative to the wide spread abusive misuse of bits in dressage.
Bitless has been used in open jumping for a loooong time here in the USA. USET jumping team member Kathy Kusner used to use an old type jumping cavesson in the 1960's on Untouchable in international competitions. I started my bitless adventures 40 years ago with the jumping cavesson. I used my jumping cavesson for trail riding and for training young horses. It just does not give that much accurate control, the cross-under bitless is, in my opinion, a BIG advance in fine control over the jumping cavesson. If I was able to train young horses to saddle any more I would not hesitate to use a cross-under on them. If I was teaching beginners I would also use a cross-under.
I am looking forward to buying a Spirit bridle soon to see if it is superior to Dr. Cook's or the Nurtural bitless. I would not use the Dr. Cook's or Nurtural for dressage probably since in all the videos of horses ridden dressage with these bitless bridles the horses' faces are behind vertical, something I can't stand (it was not acceptable when I started riding) and I am interested in the Spirit bridle because it is the only one that looks like it can deliver what I would want if I was riding in collection, true flexion at the poll, not the false flexion at the third vertebrae of the neck.
But then I am a really old-fashioned rider.
While using a bit humanely is possible it takes teaching and training the rider to do it properly, and I do not see much evidence of riders getting this training any more. My proof? Nowadays a rider can get an Olympic gold medal with the horse's face behind the vertical. When I started riding this was considered proof positive that the rider had awful hands and was not good enough to ride dressage, much less compete internationally. Why take the time to learn how to use a bit properly if only people who use the bit harshly get high rewards in dressage nowadays?
I really hope the cross-under people get their bridles accepted for dressage and hunter.

The mechanism for landing/turning imho is much better in a side pull type bridle.  Using the left rein effects the solidity of the outside strap, and visa versa.  So the basic knowledge are actually in reverse. And essentially they all function the same, and it is very easy to make your own.  I think at least the Nurtural is made of leather rather than nylon in so many ways.   But for me a good bitless alternative is the http://www.williammicklem.com/multibridle.html

I really think the issue is not about bits or no bits. It's about how we ride our horses. That should start with empathy for these animals that serve us and a willingness to be extremely honest with ourselves about what we are doing while we are on the horse's back.

Bitless bridles, rollkur, USEF rules. they are all red herrings. Whether or not we ride abusively is up to each of us. We have to take full responsibility for what we are doing every time we mount a horse. We have to go to the most knowledgeable, most compassionate coaches we can find, we have to practice soft riding, strive to improve our seats, and we have to be very self policing of our own actions, rather than trying to police what other people are doing.

Allan has every right to pursue his grievance, but number one, he must look at his own riding, which he has never put on public display.

In other words,  "You must be the change you want to see in the world." Mahatma Gandhi

Hmm, I'm starting to rant. I think I'll write a blog about this. Give me a few days...

-- Edited by Barbara F on Thursday 10th of February 2011 11:37:10 AM

What is the point of showing us pictures of what you don't like?

Where are the pictures of your students to show us your successes? Don't you have any before and after photos to show everyone the positive results you are talking about? Can't you take some photos? You can block out faces if you want.

Anyone can say anything about how they train, but where are the images? Where is the video? Without those it's just a lot of words and a lot of criticism that anyone can type on their computer.


-- Edited by Laura F on Thursday 10th of February 2011 12:45:43 PM

-- Edited by Laura F on Thursday 10th of February 2011 12:46:12 PM

Standing ovation for dbliron!

Laura F, you made a very good point about "pictures of what you don't like".

When he used to post photos of his riding, his students or his horses, demonstrating what he believed was "correct", he got his head handed to him. Over and over again. He loves to hold up photos & illustrations of the old dead masters as examples, which is all fine, but he cannot see how his own posture differs from those classical seats and how he interferes with the horse.

He is blind to any theories but his own, cannot recognize that what he preaches is not what he puts into practice, and in the end, does more harm than good to the sport we love.

Figarocubed wrote:

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He is blind to any theories but his own, cannot recognize that what he preaches is not what he puts into practice, and in the end, does more harm than good to the sport we love.

---

The individuals who are blind are the individuals have never schooled with me. 
I have more research and study into dressage than you could even imagine.  You have no idea of the individuals I have communicated with.

This is what is wrong with our entire society.  Rules, lets go violate them all.  If, you as a rider and member of USEF, are not willing to demand that our representatives, who publically portray the health and welfare of the horse as the primary responsiblity, then shame on this country.

The rules have been written to aid in the health and welfare of the horse.  To fail to enforce them is the failure to defend the horses.  It is a failure of the system.   If you approve that then so be it. 

It is not about individual riders or trainers or clinicians, it is about the picture we present as a whole.   The picture "we" - that means me as well - is not what the Mission Statement states, nor what the rules state.

 

Mr. Buck, having seen video and stills of your rides, why on earth would I school with you? You are the poster boy for that old saw, "Those who can't do, teach".

Your "research and study" is done with a preconcieved conclusion. You're just looking for data to prove your "results". You turn scientific method on its head and inside out.

I see little wrong with the picture dressage competition presents as a whole. Certainly there are a few abusive riders. Some (depending on opinion and perception) are visible at the top of the sport. But I think on the whole, dressage riders develop their horses and themselves with the intention to better the partnership, improve their horse's suppleness and strength, and create a harmonious picture.

Dressage competition is only one thing I do with my horse. We also trail ride, move cattle, do a little cavalletti schooling. Dressage training gave him a set of brakes -- something he did not have when I got him. It also helped overcome a back injury that ruined his jumping career. Dressage made a good horse a GREAT horse, one who's sound and strong. He was neither when I got him.

I prefer to accentuate the positive and find your constant harping on imagined dressage wrongs tiresome. Your ideas are so outrageous and heretical, they must be countered wherever you present them.

Jackie, you are right that dressage is not a spectator-friendly sport. Neither is chess. I don't think riding a 5 or 6 minute pattern around an arena for the purposes of testing to be too great a hardship for horses. It's not ALL they are asked to do. Hopefully, the average dressage horse also gets a chance to go hacking, hunting or practice "dressage figures" on a hillside or in and out of trees for the sake of variety. Every horse "suffers" the minute we put tack on them -- but it's relative. Every human "suffers" the minute he/she steps into the cubicle at work. We must work or starve. Horses are big and expensive -- there must be a justification for having them and paying for their upkeep. They are "recreational vehicles", if you will -- on the whole, a better life than they had one hundred years ago, when they might be worked to death and truly abused.

Want excitement? Watch a rodeo.

Let us all acknowledge that exciting equestrian competitions get larger paying audiences than calm, smooth performances, however correct.
Open jumping is more exciting than hunter classes.
Rodeo is more exciting than Western Pleasure.
The Grand National is more exciting than hurdle races.
The Big Lick Tennessee Walking horse classes are more exciting than the TWH pleasure classes.
The top Saddlebred show classes are more exciting than Hunter Pleasure.
Modern competition dressage, with extravegant action and loud exciting music is more exciting than a Spanish Riding School performance with a string quartet.
Modern Arabian Halter Stallion classes are more exciting than the halter classes decades ago where the stallions were expected to behave.
And I am sure that more comparisions come to mind.
Audiences like to get excited.  Most have no idea what the horses go through in order to deliver an exciting performance. 
In a culture that demands special effects, explosions, fast car chases, etc. in movies dramatic movement by horses is the only thing guaranteed to gain lots of paying customers.
The only way I can see dressage horses delivering exciting movements while in the ring is to sacrifice the super accuracy of where the movements begin and end, all dictated by the letters of the ring rather than the inherent collected movement of each individual horse.  When accuracy is the guiding principle, usually all the horse's spontaneity goes out the window.  A horse with no spontaneity at all is often boring to watch. 
Because of Rollkur and other modern dressage training techniques modern competition dressage riders deliver both precision and exciting movement, but at a price to the horse.  I don't think they have yet gotten as bad as the Big Lick TWH shows, and they may be less harmful to the horse than the top American Saddle Horse shows, but they seem to deliver a similar excitement to the paying audiences.

I have stated on numerous occasions on numerous forums that this is not a blanket coverage.   There are thousands of good people who care about their competitive and non-competitive horses.  The problem I have is with the attitude of refusing to acknowledge that someone who is not credentialed may have knowledge that so many individuals do not.

I was schooled traditionally, however, bitless in SB correctly ridden has proven to numerous people that we were missing something the horses have been trying to tell us.  Yes that something a lot of riders, trainers and clinicians do hear, however, have not been able to communicate it.   For some reason I am able to do so.

Abuse, 'the infliction of pain and/or discomfort' upon the horse is for the most part unintentional which is a result of lack of knowledge.  USEF and 'all' of its agents should be doing everything in their power to acquire and diseminate any new knowledge that will benefit the health and welfare of the horse.  Also, because competition riders are the poster stars for the venues, it is their responibility to present the venue in the correct manner.

As for bitless, I will state emphatically, it can be abused, as is evident in videos on Youtube.   The cross under the jaw design I created cannot be ridden as if it were bitted.  The less contact one has with the horse, the more performance the horse will give.  Example: in 1999, Fabulon won a two and three quarter mile steeplechase in England in the bridle, and he did so by 12 lengths after being sixth against the rail most of the way.   The following day in the Sporting News, Spirit Bridle was given full credit for the win.

What does this mean?  Specifially it means that rather than pulling on the horse, the softer give and take of SB allowed the horse to run with a longer stride at a slower speed using less energy than the other horses.   Translate this to dressage and you will have a horse who does each movement with such freedom that he or she will appear to being floating and doing it on their own.

If an individual uses the bit that is fine, but that individual should use it properly and stay out of the horse's mouth, because there are physical injuries that can and will be inflicted upon the horse because of the hard constant pressures.

Mr. Zettle held up SB and walke around the small arena, at one of his demonstrations at the 2004 Western States Expo and openly stated that everyone should learn to ride in it because it would soften their hands.  He did so because he understood that the secret to the foundation of contact with the horse is absolute true lightness.

Yes.
Lightness, softness, and compassion for the horse.

I do not intend to be facetious, but I literally school my clients to actually physcially dance with their horses, not just to be a rider.

Dancing requires complete supple and flexible muscle structures of both parties.  I teach the independent muscle structure and aids of each leg and hip, of the rider's back, each shoulder arm and elbow, and most importantly - I teach them rein contact with their fingers.

Cue the violins!

Mr. Buck's platitudes regarding welfare of the horse, kindness and all the rest are easy to agree with. Who wouldn't? The trouble begins when one assesses the details of the plan.

Read carefully between the lines of Mr. Buck's website, examine photos and videos of his riding and training -- if you can find them anymore. Then decide if he practices what he preaches.

Even his avatar photo shows a horse who's not open in the throatlatch and tight in the poll. Sorry, I'm not buying what he's selling. Despite what he likes to claim about me and my horse, he's the one who's resistant to learning anything new -- especially if it runs counter to his own theories. I have a horse who proves the benefits of long and low riding -- which Mr. Buck likes to lump in with the dreaded rollkur. This is where his closed-mindedness causes a problem. He is too dogmatic to understand that there are degrees of long and low that are not coercive. This is where he and I have a problem.

The gelding in my avatar came to me with a back injury. He was too lame to jump. His rear end was atrophied. He could not track up and literally pulled himself around with his front legs. The hinds were just there, it seemed, to hold his back end up. At the pre-purchase exam, my vet said it would take a year of careful rehab to bring him back and there were no guarantees. His recommendation for rehab included nothing but walk and trot for the first two months or so, lots of hill work, lungeing in a chambon or Vienna Reins to encourage the stretching of the neck forward and down and thereby lifting the back. He was to be ridden this way, too. At first, he could not stretch down and forward with the nose -- the nose tended to go behind the vertical. This was due to weakness, and was something that had to be worked through. The horse did not travel that way because of force, but because of his own weakness. That's the difference between riding on a light contact long, low and deep to build suppleness and strength, and RK, which is forceful and coercive. RK would have ruined this horse. Mr Buck and I had cordial discussions of this case via PM's -- but he still considers me a brute and advocate of RK -- which I am not. OTOH, in spite of his copious writings, I still consider him a poor rider, one who is unable to demonstrate conclusively his theories.

The avatar photo was taken of us at a show 15 months after I purchased him. His back causes no more problems, though he will never jump. He can do everything else with ease and grace, and he's my pet and best pal. For Buck to insinuate that I have anything but this horse's best interests at heart is insulting and ignorant.

Oh, by the way, Mr. Buck; if you choose to use my words in your presentation to the USEF or USDF -- please have the good grace to use them unedited.

-- Edited by Figarocubed on Tuesday 15th of February 2011 02:08:11 PM

Figaro

Nice post. I do not see how anyone would consider you a brute or part of the RK crowd. That is beyond comprehension! ( I have enjoyed reading your posts in the forum and have learned much!) What you have shown with your horse is thinking about his wellness and what he needs rather than just reading a book, adhering strictly to rules made by who knows who, or mimicking a photo that depicts what is 'correct'. Bravo! Thinking outside the box is a good thing. Those who get stuck mimicking photos are missing the real world and not listening to what their horses are telling them.

Now my soap box about this thread (which also exists on several other forums with little support to validity of the 'grievance). I actually agree with Spirit one one point: Why not allow bitless bridles? If someone prefers bitless for dressage, the why not. Also, it seems in this age where mature women ( no offense to anyone, I too am a mature woman) seem to want to have a more woo-woo or natural or 'kinder' approach to animal care. We see the parelli machine promoting 'Natural' to this population and they are very successful with this approach thus the marketing geniuses are correct. Mature women seem to want to be 'in tune', more natural, more of a 'dance partner' with their horse. I personally do not like the term ' dance'. Seems silly to me and reminds me of the '70s/'80s, miniskirts,bell bottoms and big hair. Rather I am prefer to see dressage as me being fully in tune to my horse, engaged at all times with his mind since he is engaged with mine. If I visualize what I want to achieve, he sees the same thing. I use my 'helps' ( yes, I follow Bill Woods) to help him understand how to learn or move a particular way with me.

Here is where I disagree with this grievance: Bitless, even in the hands of the Natural, organic rider, can still be harmful. Bitless bridles in all their forms including hackamores and rope halters can cause serious damage to the horse if used with bad hands. NO DIFFERENCE from bits in this respect.

I also feel that grievances such as this are just fuel to light the flame of animal rights extremists/eco terrorists. They see something like this and then all horse owners are evil and torturing their horses. I do not feel that public grievances such as this one a benefit to the horse community rather they can be the door to something much worse. I love my horses, I love horse sports. I adore OTTBs even though I cringe when watching horse races since I do not want to see a crash. A big sigh of relief when all make it through the finish line! I do not want the extreme animal rights groups to use grievances such as this against those of us who ride, show, and own horses.

USEF is a horse show agency. I believe they do very well and keeping most riders in check. There will always be those who push the limits of what is acceptable, and for those horses, yes, I do feel bad. You can find those who violate rules on the websites of USEF, USDA, etc. How about go after those people directly: do not support their barns, do not buy products they sell or support their sponsors. I feel those would be better measures to protest rule-breaking

Ah, but Barnfrog, Mr. Buck seeks to cudgel us with HIS interpretation of how the rules are being violated. I agree his grievance does not hold water, but that inconvenient fact will not deter him.

His rants are akin to the Animal "Rights" activists arguments as CHFarm ably pointed out. This is the first step down a slippery slope that could ban horse ownership and the use of horses for anything beyond live lawn ornaments.

Tell Dr. Clayton and Dr. Thompson they do not know what they are talking about.

Dr. Hilary Clayton states: “There is an assumption of space there, be in real life there is no space between the tongue and palate, so the bit has to squash something - usually either the tongue or the palate”.

Rein pressure research by Dr. Clayton demonstrates that the rein pressures can vary from one to five pounds and that oscillation of the contact takes two full spikes every full stride. Using static x-rays, Dr. Clayton found that a bit in normal position [I call it neutral] contact the palate and the tongue while when there is rein tension the bits tended to move away from the palate and on to the tongue.

Dr. Clayton has shown that reins can't act independently of each other and that "forces applied to one rein are always transmitted via the joint to the opposite side of the mouthpiece." Another finding in Dr. Clayton’s research is the frequency of the horses putting their tongues over the bit. Dr. Clayton’s own words; “Some of them were clearly using this method to keep the bit away from the palate, but it happens more often than you think”.

The horses used in Dr. Clayton’s research have clearly spoken out that they did not appreciate the bit in their mouths. The placement of the bit and bits into the horses’ mouths clearly causes discomfort. When the excessive rein pressures induced by the rider are added to the equation, pain is surely created and the discomfort level spikes. Dr. Clayton’s studies have shown that horses lean on the bit to relieve the pressure on the soft tissues of their palate. Clayton's research has shown that the bars and the roof of the mouth are sensitive and vulnerable to injury.

From Dr. Thomas Johnson, DVM Surgical Removal of Mandibular Periostitis {Bone Spurs] Caused by Bit Damage, I quote:
“Many performance horses suffer from painful mandibular periostitis caused by bit trauma. Periostitis and resulting bony callus formation can cause severe pain when the bit contacts the damaged area.  The area most often affected is the interdental space between the corner incisor and the second premolar. Occasionally the upper interdental space on the maxilla may be involved.  Most horses with mandibular periostitis are performance horses ridden with a large amount of bit contact. Inexperienced or overzealous hands can result in damage to the mandibular bone. Frequently affected horses include the following: dressage horses, gaited horses, western working horses, Standardbred and Thoroughbred race horses, gaming horses, and polo ponies.  Horses often exhibit behavioral signs related to avoiding bit contact when being ridden. Horses will avoid the bit by going “behind the vertical,” or by flipping their head so the rider releases contact.  Some horses bear into the pain, whereas others will hang their tongue out of the mouth, protecting the side that is most painful.”

barnfrog wrote:

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 Certainly the ones hanging on a bb can be just as problematic and out of balance.  A bb can create as much problem in the vertebrae (pressure on the wings of the vertebrae) as can bitted horses.  

A cross under the jaw rein bitless bridle does not apply pressure to the boney protrusion of the poll.  It can if pulled hard but that is bad riding.

So, bad riding is bad riding.  And poor studies are poor studies. 
 
Who can prove that the mentioned studies are "poor" studies.  More accurate than the unfounded claims be rendered by folks.

 

And that all has little to do with the premise of the suit.

There is not suit!  It is a grievance predicated upon the failure of USEF to enforce the rules, these failures reward BAD riding.

---

 

Which horse is in that photograph? Is it some sort of official photograph representing the standard presentation of the competitive dressage horse, or just a photo that you found? I haven't seen it before.

No one said the cross under applies pressure to the poll, but the way ANY bridle is used can cause the vertebral bodies to be misaligned.  You miss the point EAB.

-- Edited by barnfrog on Wednesday 16th of February 2011 10:19:11 AM

STOP STOP STOP
Have you read the grievance? 
It is not about a damn sales pitch for Spirit Bridle.
No one has given a correct and proper comparison of the two bridles. 
Read the relief asked for, which stipulates the forms of bitless.
Once again you and others choose to ignore the premise of the grievance which is enforcement of the rules.......
I do not put a sales pitch about Spirit Bridle on anyone, if they try it they buy it.

CHFarm wrote:

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I am confused. I am following this same topic on the Horse forum. It no longer sounds like a grievance about rules being broken but rather a sales pitch for the Spirit Bridle. Someone even compared the spirit bridle to dr cooks and that got a very strong negative reaction by the bridles creator.

Thus is this grievance mainly an attempt to get USEF to allow bitless bridles in hopes that more people will purchase a bitless bridle, with spirit bridle an option? If so, then this seems to be about profit and marketing.

-- Edited by CHFarm on Wednesday 16th of February 2011 10:42:41 PM

---

 

creating a video --- when it is ready it will be up on Youtube and I will inform the forum

What ever happened with this grievance? What was the result?

So, how long does it take to take a video of yourself riding a horse?