Any FEI riders out there? Help needed with canter pirouette!

Barbara F · Grand Prix

Any FEI riders out there? Help needed with canter pirouette!

Kairen Jamieson · Yearling

I hope you do not mind if I give my take/opinion on this in a general way.

To me...alot of riding that has become second nature to us physically...is not always as easy mentally.

The mind says to do one thing...the body does another sort of thing.

You know a movement/distance to a fence...but miss as you question yourself

You wonder if you can do a movement/grid on your own that you have done/practised with a coach to perfection...you "freeze" with indecision or trying to remember "what made it work in the lesson"

You want to ride perfect and that is what you are mentlly doing...but physically.....welllll....

IMO....it is that mental part that one must really start to look at as they climb in their riding skill as well as the physical aspect....and you know...sports pshychology is a missing part of alot of the training programs out there yet it is so important that a rider be mentally adjusted/prepared for riding/showing.

What do you do when you panic?

Do you close down mentally then physically...or visa versa.

When you mentally "stop" for that moment..where does the body tend to tense stopping the kinetic energy needed to continue for a smooth pirrotte?

See...I think it is not what others think that is important here...but what you are thinking...or... not thinking...or feeling.....and when...what is the trigger....it needs to be indentified as well as the tension areas it affects.

Lack of confidence..really....lets' face it...honestly..it is plan and simple fear...fear of not getting the correct distance and having the horse stop/taking a rail/coming off....having a fear/lack of confidence that your ability to get the pirrotte 100% correct/being too rough with hands/not having application and/or activation aids correct/whatever makes you question yourself...and that fear...even though it is mental...comes through in riding due to the affect it has by causing tension.

I wonder if you do have the physical ability...but now must mentally "catch up" with yourself in the "riding psychology" of things....organise the mind sort of thing instead of letting it freeze or scream out "OMIGOD" even for a second....allowing yourself to feel where you freeze in the body in the panic to indentify/overcome it physically while working on the mental part too

I really liked the book "Heads Up" by Janet Sasson Edgette...it is a practical sports psychology book for riders/trainers...and actually covers this sort of thing.

Just a bit of my own mussing....hope you do not mind.

-- Edited by Kairen Jamieson on Friday 1st of April 2011 10:24:12 PM

Barbara F · Grand Prix

I don't mind at all and I greatly appreciate your insights! You've given me some great ideas to think about! :)

spirithorse · Advanced

I do not know the aids you use for cp, however, might I suggest that when you ask for the pirouette, use the inside rein as directional obtaining lateral flexion of the poll, let your outside rein go forward slightly but maintain equalized contact, take your inside leg off, apply pressure with your outside calf.....and softly tighten your outside buttock muscles......DO NOT WEIGHT the outside strirrup.

barnfrog · Advanced

First, practice a LOT of collecting onto the spot, and moving on again from JUST sitting taller (perhaps posterior tilting of the pelvis 2-3 times)? Make sure that the horse is slightly in shoulder fore before starting the P. Then merely do a 1/4 pirouette from the wall, sit up/ outside leg is back, but inside leg is closer to the girth. Step/step/inside leg pulses to go forward again.

For 1/2 p sit up, outside leg back, hh/hh/then think I am cantering on the spot. This it is a little shoulder fore idea, between inside leg and outside rein. Pulsing inside calf with heel down closer to the girth.

Also all c/p which are too big have too much inside rein (ends up with too much bend vs light inside flexion (at the atlat/poll). Make sure not to drop the hand which causes hollowing.

What going on in my mind? Energy leaving the wall, then collecting onto the spot, then keeping energy with touches of the inside leg, outside leg from hip to heel is stretched down/back and fairly passive and stable.. Sit up/look up/ perhaps raise inside rein a wee bit, keep outside elbow steady (do not give it away). Touch/touch/straight. Remember 1/2 p at 3/4 strides.

Most people tend to lean over the inside shoulder, stay seated think perhaps sitting out outside fanny of horse if you do that. You do not have time to worry, think about pulse softlyyy and release of the aids inside with great boobs up/looking up posture. Upper arms MUST be by trunk with soft hands. This is an erect posture exercise, nothing more, the touchs of the leg with lower knees are just that. THink cantering up a hill.

Nikki Salo · Grand Prix

Barnfrog has some very good advice!

Break everything down into steps and work on one step at a time until you (and your horse) become second nature to it, but don't let your posture become sloppy, you want to be sitting very up-right and quietly in the saddle, keeping your bum right in the saddle (no leaning to the inside!) -- use your legs to create and maintain energy through the movement.

Like Barnfrog said, use the wall, the wall is so handy, because you don't have to think much about which direction you need to be going and in most cases a horse is happy to get off the wall (so be aware not to apply aids too strongly at first, you don't want to create rushing from the horse).

Another idea, coming from a western point of view, if you have cones that you can use, make yourself a box (using a cone for each corner), make it a good size so that you can canter in, make a quarter turn and canter out. This is a good exercise to really get a feel for the distance within a circle and you can work towards a half turn, to a 3/4 turn, to a full turn.

dbliron · Advanced

Hi, Barbara! There's lots of good advice here, particularly in a mechanical sense, so I'll try not to add to that.

However, here are some slightly different ideas:

One of the best things I learned from Phillipe Karl (and one of my Dutch coaches teaches it this way too) is to stop worrying about the quality of the gait when learning/teaching a movement with which either horse or rider or both have difficulty. Instead, concentrate on learning to produce/keep the shape and balance of the movement. When that's easy and requires much less attention, add back in the quality of the gait. When learning the feel of the canter pirouette, which can vary a lot from horse to horse, play with decreasing a canter volte using travers, and as you feel the balance improve, lighten the demand with the outside leg, and turn the shoulders a little more with the outside rein. If the balance is lost, bounce the inside shoulder back up into your outside rein with a light but active inside leg, rebuild the volte, and start again. The play aspect of this is really important - canter pirouettes which have been forced upon the horse always tell the tale, and from what I know of you that's not at all what you're after!

If your horse starts to take over and spin, try approaching the canter pirouette out of a counter canter. Ride a canter serpentine with 10m loops either side of centre line. When you feel the balance is right, and that the collection is honest, ride a working pirouette out of the counter canter loop.

Some horses/riders find the turning easier to feel if they ride into canter from a walk pirouette, and continue the turning aids once the canter is achieved.

You have a good coach, and I'm sure she's working with you on the mechanical aspects of the movement, but as you've discovered, there's more to good pirouettes than mechanics. I really can't emphasize the "play" aspect enough - give yourself and your horse time to sort out what's happening, and discover what you need to do!

-- Edited by dbliron on Saturday 2nd of April 2011 10:16:58 AM

barnfrog · Advanced

Forgot another good exercise to 'contain' the CP. Ride counter canter on the 3/4 line and do the 1/2 (and later 3/4) p TOWARD the wall. Then YOU do not have to worry about size. Works great IF all the rest above is 'in order'.

You HAVE to keep the quality (aka purity) of the gait in mind in cp which equals balance. IF the horse starts to stall out it will labor in the movement. And then the horse will over rotate (ie do 2 strides in a 1/2 p rather than 4). (Remember fulls=4-8 and half p=3-4).

For me, the quality of CP will only be as good as the timing of the aids in walk p. And few do them correctly (horse slows/leans). And rider posture is EVERYTHING. Sitting up, alone, should collect the horse enough to do CP. It is a key element of doing P which are UPHILL. Too often we see hindlegs under to the girth buried onto the forelegs in a shortened frame rather than the hindleg joints folding and the horse being up. The former will lean and over rotate, the later will be smaller plate sized, with purer strides and more of them.

Indeed good canter to walk and to canter DO tell the story. The horse has to be up/open/active tempos to do those things.

Barbara F · Grand Prix

Thank you to all for these fantastic ideas and for taking the time to help me with this! I have a lot to work on and I'll let you know my progress.

Barnfrog, my coach did that exact exercise with me with the counter canter and the wall and I got a superb pirouette. The only problem was that I was CHEATING and trying my make my quarter line...ahem...more of a 1/3 line to give myself more space! My coach then stood on the quarter line so I couldn't cheat!

Queenrider · Advanced

My coach used to have me ride collected canter on the diagonal towards the wall, then use the school canter then do the piroutte using the wall. Cheating was not allowed. I had to go right up to the wall. after the piroutte you go back to collected canter and continue on to the next wall. When you get good at this you put in a change at x. One of the prequistes for this exercise was to canter the square with 1/4 pirouttes at each corner. Another exercise I had to master was to counter canter a smallish circle, almost a volte and do a piroutte out of it and then return to the counter canter circle.

Barbara F · Grand Prix

An update!
I've been away for the past six days so no work for horsey or me. Yesterday did a bit of light stuff, then today incorporated some walk pirouettes on the diagonal, my horse (who is a genius) got the idea very quickly and started setting himself up for them. Later when I was doing a bit of collected canter, I simply started across the diagonal and after three strides or so, I just used my body and my legs - and turned! I could have droppped the reins and he would have kept turning!

This is all due to taking bits of advice from everyone here and adding them together!

Onward!! :)

spirithorse · Advanced

wink SUPERB, congrats

Jackie Cochran · Advanced

It sounds like YOU needed a vacation! Many times I've gotten something right only after a long break.

Congratulations!

Barbara F · Grand Prix

Yes, I did need a vacation - and I needed to b-r-e-a-t-h-e!

Goatgirl · Advanced

congrats!!!! A break always helps -- gives the brain time to sort stuff out - relax - and let the body come at it fresh - for that AHA!! moment

Congrats!!!