As a judge, imho it is NOT a tempest in a teapot.  At the lowest level how many training level horses do you see which are allowed to 'accept the bit'?  They are precipitously flexed and forced into a low and closed outline.  At the top level the results are far from the suggestions of the rules (especially as to purity of gaits).

Will there be a return to classical dressage (as it existed with airs)?  No.  Is there a return to seeking something else, including lightness?  In part.  But how are the average riders to understand this?  They have virtually no mental image which to copy. The short/closed/improper pix which are in every magazine are so wrong.

And mouser is correct, dressage is not alone in allowing what is happening with corrupted principles.  It exists in h/j/western/3 day as well.  There is no longer training for purpose, but for showing.

At the risk of sounding like just another groupie, a really eye opening and inspiring book is Philippe Karl's "The Twisted Truths of Modern Dressage".

PK compares todays modern dressage with the classical principles and demonstrates in beautiful photographs and drawings about what’s is incorrect and what is correct. Its become a bible of classical riding for those who want to ride with lightness and true tempo and movement including high school movements rarely seen today. PK can be a little preachy in his writing (he is a very arrogant man when you meet him in person) but he doesn’t just SAY - he DOES - making it hard to dispute the facts. If you only ever read one book on horsemanship, make it this one.

Dressage was 'invented' in the days of cavalry where each movement had a purpose. It was a work of art and a display of discipline and having a horse which was trained to be completely obedient, flexible and quick to the aids was essential or else you'd get your head sliced off in battle. They even used the horses as weapons with defensive tactics. It was a revalation in those days giving riders the upper hand. We obviously no longer have a need for cavalry in today’s armies so it’s become a ' historical show' for the amusement of tourists and a hobby for the general riding population. The biggest problem I think is that dressage has lost its purpose.

I think the desire to go 'back to the roots' of classical dressage has been bought about because of the realisation that biomechanics are a being rediscovered and are REAL. We only need to look at the 'phenomenon' of natural horsemanship - everyone goes "WOW, this new discovery is fantastic!" Despite it having been around since the domestication of horses. It’s a hit because the general population desires to do the right thing by their horse and develop a true RELATIONSHIP and PARTNERSHIP with their horses. Horsemen have been using it for years, but all it took was for Parelli to make it clear and obvious and show everyday people how to apply it day to day and he's now a millionaire. Clever man. And the horses are so much better for it.

Classical dressage is the same - it’s been around for many, many years, but all aspects of riding became about making money for sponsors etc so the riders started taking shortcuts so results were instant/quicker and with big flash to impress the crowds at the expense of the horse and of the correctness of the movements. Most people want to do the best for their horses and classical dressage takes the horse in to consideration and uses their natural movement and frame to achieve BETTER results and a connection with their mounts which is unforced and soft and light.

As several people have pointed out, the 'rulebook' does state the classical principles, but they are overlooked, misconstrued and things are allowed to slide - the funny thing is there's two parts to the story. Its the judges we need to have a good look at as well as the riders. They're the ones who award the prizes for these 'half-arsed' dressage tests. They need to unite and put a stop to it the blatant flaunting of the rules. But it wont happen - if it did they wouldnt be asked to attend any events. I've already heard that certain prominant riders wont attend events if certain judges will be there. And if the prominant riders arent there, the crowds arent there. So we have to ask who we're really catering to?

Fortuately, as awareness is raised, classical dressage is infilitrating all aspects of riding and maybe in 10 - 15 - 20 years it will be the norm. We can only hope. Speak with your feet :)

barnfrog wrote:

---

Although I agree at the top there are many times the rules are ignored spirit, generally speaking those which train by the rules early on ARE still recognized.  I have students who DO train by the rules/directives and do win (at all levels).  So that is rather a cop out.  And you are free to do bitless presentations in any case.

The USEF is merely our national body, the fei makes the directives.

---

 I know of alot of people who school with classical principals and I applaud you if you follow them...however:

Our best and the world's best do not meet the stipulated descriptions and therefore competitive dressage is be destroyed.

 The movements are not met if the correct head/neck position is not maintained...that is a requirment of every movement...a cop out....

the cop out is the judges allowing riders to make presentations that do not meet the requirements.  And the biggest offenders are at the GP international level....whom are suppposed to be the role models for every other competitor.

I second Figaro's statements - there are many of us who are training and have always trained within classical principles. 

I insist on adherence to the training scale, and to classical training methodology, and my clients and I win quite a lot.  There are judges who miss what's important, and who reward the wrong things, but there are also many of them who've made a lifetime and ongoing study of the classical system, and who are delighted to reward it when they see it.

Truthfully, lousy dressage and just plain bad riding have been around since the dawn of dressage, and they will persist as long as human nature is factored into the equation.  It's up to those of us who know better to continue to model the "right stuff", and to make it available to the public.

I agree many do school with the classical principals in mind - and do train correctly - my grandmother (my family on my father's side raised Trakehner in East Prussia long ago) - always said 'it's like building a house and if the foundations are faulty the whole house collapses-

but when the dressage 'super stars' are demonstrating a dressage that is so distorted -and being rewarded for it - ..... should not the judges penalize them --

when I see film of the lippizans - no I don't believe we will return to airs for competitive dressage - nor do I believe should we - but I admire the seat of the riders at the Spanish riding school - on of my uncles (also horsey) told me 'you must see the spanish riding school before you die - the students ride in and are so quiet you can not see them move - only about a half-hour into their schooling do you see how hard they are working - you see the sweat on the backs of their shirts... but they are quiet...

Similarly I saw the Celle Stallions at spruce meadows last fall -- and it was truly truly beautiful - THAT was dressage -- there were no airs -nor should there have been in this demonstration  - but the horses were free moving without flinging legs -- and the brief explanation by the director -- told that these horses are truly worked with the classical principals in mind --

the difference between these horse and what is seen and rewarded in international dressage -- it was galaxies appart...

And again when I was in vegas watching the World cup - and the more the horse flung it's legs the more the audience cheered....-- I'm thinking that most of the people in the audience would be dressagey -- shouldn't they know that a horse that is so tight in the neck that it's flinging it's legs - is not correct? What does that say about the understanding of the common understanding of what dressage is??

Although even as a judge I blame some judges (ie Lette when he was head of the FEI started the downhill slide), but honestly READ THE RULES spirit (in toto).The USEF does NOT block anything.  IF the protest is found valid you get it back.  And abuse discussion ARE put into the (individual) rider's folders, and they ARE held to discussion even w/o a fee! 

The 'common understanding' is NOT just in dressage, at one time all disciplines held the same values.  H/j/dressage/western/etc.  No one could BS a true horseman, basic tack was enough because the SEAT/timing/'at homeness in the saddle' was there.  The less educated the consumer (like one who drives a car but doesn't know when tires are flat or engine is straining or etc), the more suspect things can be thrown at them as 'justifications' .  Witness:  the judge's forum this year gave an excuse for a good looking topline (they only meant neck) was a 'long poll'.

Agree on all points GG.

spirithorse wrote:

---

What we are discussing does apply to all competitive equine venues under the auspice of USEF and FEI.   So how do we fix it?   Silence only allows the overseers to maintain control over the workers. 

---

 The people need to speak out, boycot and protest. The people have the most power. 

But untop of that, riding needs to be took down back to the roots. All the information is there, we have been riding long enough, it just needs to be put together.

Natural Horsemanship needs to be combined with Behavioral Studies, as these give us the realonship and "bond" with our horses. (Yes, I do mean you need to discipline that 1200 pound animal. I used to hate discipline but after dealing with an aggressive horse, I now see the importance)

Obviously there are still people who know the old style of riding, that was done with a purpose. We need to cherish these people and learn what we can because all the riding was done for a reason, and go back to the point where hard work and effort created a horse and rider, and the proper way to do the old way, because if it was done for years with no or little harm, they must have done something right.

I wish that somewhere along the line, I can ride under an old style rider. Maybe someone from the Spanish Riding School.(I'm not sure how good the school is anymore, I've mostly been reading older stuff recently, because we fashions change the methods still might be helpful)

Two of my students (both proffessionals as well) are in his course.  Is he traditional?  Via bsm/and his studies he is.  Will many agree with him?  Not all.  But the bearing of the horse which he promotes/suggests IS traditional (as the fei guidelines suggest....and as most use to be).   Have these two studies bsm otherwise?  Minimally.   But they will be learning...one on a green mare and one on an older fei horse (with previous problematic training before she got him).

Soo, how can you set an example if your not out in the arena? It's far too easy to sit back in your own comfort zone and critisize. The real work is being done by those of us that are in the compitition arena or training those for the comptition arena.

It's easy to be a big fish in a small pond.

FYI

Just got back from KY and the USEF does not give a damn about the health and welfare of the horse!  Will post details later.

The meeting was based upon http://www.hartetoharte.org/USEF-Grievance.html and is basically about what is abuse (already defined by the USEF) and about changing the dressage rules (which the USEF cannot because they are a national body who uses the FEI rules) so as to allow a bitless bridle (which they can IF there is a class for them). The answer is simple, start a separate section/class which has only that (like the gaited community has done).

Alan, it is YOUR letter to the USEF, complete with questions/discussion. So, what has changed?  And how many shows do you go to in which to base your claim?  Do you know that extreme use of any equipment IS stopped by TDs and judges?  

You know many of us cannot stand rollkur, and that type of application of aids/training.  But those problems are with FEI shows, so go to the FEI.  Get the same stop the competition order that PETA has done if you want.  But then, as was done in Oregon, there will be another judge with a standing order which can override it immediately.

IF you want bitless classes you would be MUCH better off to contact those in Holland, etc who have created such classes within their countries FNs imho.  THEN if the riding is SO much better, it can morph.  (So far, even there, that has not proved itself though.) Start them at schooling shows (some already have), and begin a ground swell.

But why is there humiliation in being rejected by the USEF?  Rework the presentation with clarity.  

As far as expert witnesses: there are two ways to be accepted as one.  One is success in the field ie being a winner or producing a winner(s) over many years or producing horses of high standards as well.  (It is NOT merely time on the back of a horse in a given piece of equipment per se.) Anothers way to be an expert is to study to become one: higher level degrees in this case in biomechanics or being a vet.  In order to be a judge most are the first, and some are also the later (or at least have had to take course AND have continuing education as well).  We keep asking to see vids of correct dressage schooling in a bitless bridle which makes you an expert for classical schooling of GP/airs (which would make you a dressage expert). Or vets degrees.  It would do much to advance your cause.

One could equally say that all judges with more than 20 years of experience are even BETTER evaluators of how misuse of bits affects balance (the evaluation of which reveals itself by comparison to the directives WHICH ARE THERE!!!!)  But the best evaluation would come from a VET with xrays which would SHOW injuries.

You speak often of tetanic contractions when talking about training, but vets have said this does not apply.  Perhaps explaining such things scientifically (through association with a vet school)  would help as well.

For what it is worth, many of us have ridden w/o bits (hackamores/side pulls/etc or bridles at all) in our lives, we have wide ranges of exposure and expertise. So we tend to know what is possible, and what is more problematic its use. It does not take a bit or no bit to be harsh though, getting left behind/etc can be just as harsh. Is bitless a way to let a beginner rider find themselve w/o hurting the mouth?  Perhaps, but I have rarely seen it perfected.  Because in the end tact rests in the seat and balance.

And for what it is worth, perhaps you do not know that when undertaking judges certification they ARE required to have a 'round of biomechanics'.  Do most understand the particular use of each bit (snaffle/curb) independently?  Not as much.  But both are fore refinements of balance, and that is the key.

You are SO incorrect Alan about me on so many points. First, I watch and take something from most/any educated horseman who state a good case, or present work which I want to follow, and who train by the guidelines which allow full movement/pure gaits/relaxation in the horse.

But where is the openess for WHAT you want to promote?  It is like it is some secreted information. It is up to you to present a case which we all might want to follow. People who can do this are successful.  We have seen a pix which you posted, and a couple of your riders in wtc (although problematic).  That's it. And so far there is no promotional information even about how you would expect training to advance. You often quote the rules...then show us the results fulfilled.  Not selective ones...like 'poll highest point' but the impact of it on proper balance and developing more pure gaits/suspension/impulsion.  All the points of the directives are meshed together interactively.

Why not volunteer to do your presentations over lunches at shows?  Then the viewers might want to learn your truths.  I have done some of that for about 50+ years, and you meet many people that way and effect lives and horses.  Look at people like  Eitan Beth-Halachmy (whether you like him or not) who bridge the divide of western and dressage, get out there an do it.

The fact is it not necessary for me to prove a negative (can one even do that?), but rather for you have to 'have the guts' to present a case for what your methods/bridles do differently from the traditional methodical background I grew up which includes perfecting a seat.  I find the directives from properly schooling a horse (up/open/active/methodically/bit progressively presented without impact on barsetc) work, and they work across the board for ALL disaplines as they were once done... dressage/h/j/dressage/western and they are kind to the horse.  Can one get to the same place with de jour methods? Not imho because they go against nature and uphill balance.  Can one get to the same place w/o a bit?  Have not seen it yet.  Bitless or bridleless after training?  Somewhat, but not sustainable imho.  Sustainable with harshness?  Not that either.

In fact there are many people who are outside the norm who work horse's bodies (like Manolo Mendez), etc.  Yet they can present what they do methodically, show proof with SCIENTIFIC basis, and have many horses whose bodies show they are touched by a master, and who help others to develop theirs.  

That what you need to present as a symposium, the ball is in your court....and in these days of bulletin boards you can do this advertising for essentially free (if you have a good minute long trailer), and your many students should have a ranch to do it on, and to film it.  The fact is a dear friend started the Equine Affair on a shoestring, so follow suit.  There are international clinicians that do that repeatedly because of their great value and RESULTS.

Agreed, being a vet does not make people Gods, but it makes them able to make diagnoses or xrays and etc, and it gives them scientific basis by TESTING the results.

I don't understand your anger when asked for particulars, or the seeming reluctance to tell us what is the essences of your training (and interesting that is what riders de jour seem to do also).  An expert SHOULD easily explain themselves and their points of view and show TESTING METHODS on many fronts (aka horses and students) especially if they are presenting a significant different manner of schooling.

The bitless bridles don't come with directions about what you propose.  For sure a bitless bridle of any kind cannot be used without hh ability.  Equally, explain the effect of the cross under, as it is different than a sidepull/hackamore/etc.  Tell us why you do not want a horse to chew and swallow (which for me is a big point of disagreement).

So many things necessary to prove that classical outcomes (high collection/fullness of stride/even airs) reveal themselves in a new venue.

Further one CAN show jumpers in a USEF in a bitless bridle.  So peeps like the following will be ok: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y5RCNmNLP_E

Why not make vids like these to proof the work to the masses (and are better than some shown previously  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y5KdI-qdjnw (who wants to a have a nuetral championship, or http://www.youtube.com/user/reproproof#p/a/u/1/ex88onfPc_0  Then we can discuss how these rides would be taken to high collection/classical conclusions with ease.

Also, as far as the USEF and the dressage rules, we have NO control over what the FEI changes, we must use those rules in toto for guidelines, and their fei tests.  Our own tests are only for national levels.  But the dressage rules WE cannot change.

Hostile....no simply disgusted.

Thanks for your negative postings as they reflect the problem with the horse industry as a whole.

I am disgusted with the arrogance displayed by individuals who have no idea what I can do, with the knowledge that I have received from the horses over the past 22 years of riding bitless.  My position is not about me or SB, it is about the correctness required for classsical dressage...correctness achieved without inflicting pain and discomfort upon the horse. 

Arrogance:

I am disgusted with the arrogance displayed by certain individuals who say I am simply marketing.............Cook attempted that game..............my rule change is for all bitless.  I do not need to market anything but the health and welfare of the horse.

I am disgusted with arrogant selfrighteousness displayed by certain individuals who choose to be closed opened minded to the fact that there just might a simpliar way beneficial to the horse.

As for the symposium, well the ones who make the false statements about bitless should be the ones to facilitate a situtation which either proves or disproves their position.

As for scientific evidence...well I have it that my stance on bits is validated.  As for scientific evidence on tetantic contractions....well vets do not want to acknowledge something that they did not discover, especially when drugs are not needed to fix the problem.

I totally agree with the Barnmice Law!

I imagine when Xenephon's book on riding first came out that there were many other riders complaining that he got it all wrong.  We will never know, but after reading horsemen for almost 50 years I can just see it---wrong about bitting, wrong about riding, wrong about horse care, etc., etc., etc..  Just imagine, one day we might find an ancient Greek anti-Xenephon riding book.

I have come to the conclusion that there are as many schools of horsemanship as there are serious riders, and most of these different schools disagree on many points, including the most fundamental.  Somehow the horses, bless them, manage to somewhat satisfy all these different types of riders.  I don't know how the horses do it.  It would drive me insane. 

Please forgive me all Barnmice dressage forum readers and writers for what I am about to say.

I think that too much sitting trot is bad for a human's brain.

I still do sitting trot, for short durations, as it is invaluable for training, but I try to limit it, not that hard for me since I only ride for 30 minutes at a time. 

Being brain damaged myself (I have MRIs to prove it) I recognize several phenomena from various dressage discussions.  I had to relearn how to act, and it is still hard for me when I am tired, and I found the best solution was to be VERY polite to everyone, even if they piss me off.  Even if I think they are wrong. 

It is obvious to me that several people will never agree here.  Accept it.  Cool down.  Let us be part of a civilized and considerate community where people feel safe.  There are children here, let us adults set a good example.

I value all of your opinions even though I do not think they are right for my own riding.  Every person is different, every horse is different.  That is life.

Thank you, Jackie

Ms. Salo;

I posted the Prinicipals of Life and that says it all. 

This thread is about 'CLASSICAL DRESSAGE' not about snarking at individuals because one disagrees with them.   I stand by the rules and the correctness stipulated in the rules.  If individuals choose not to do so that is their right, however, they do not have the right to contradict the required stipulations, that is misrepresentation of the rules.

May 16th was a great example of the problem with the equine industry as a whole.  Classical dressage was predicated upon a frame of the horse being beneficial to the health and welfare of the horse.  Five individuals chose to ignore the rules etc. simply because their traditional knowledge was being challenged.

If individuals choose to disagree that is great, for disagreement should lead to dialoges which should lead to the expansion of one's knowledge.  At USEF headquarters on the Jimmy Williams Perpetual Trophy are inscribed the following words:

"Its what you learn after you know it all that counts"

USEF apparently does not believe in nor follow this line, however, we as individual horse owners should adhere to it faithfully.

The interactions that occur on forums should be about seeking out knowledge from everyone, for even beginners have insights we may have forgotten about.

For instance, in dialoge with Ms. Cochran I have learned much about forward seat that I did not know and there have been other tid bits of knowledge from her.   I am willing to hear those who are willing to discuss pros and cons, willing to banter about how the difference of the horse's personality affects the schooling techniques used........discuss.

"Ask and allow, do not demand and force"

Barnfrog:

Fair enough.  Every description of every movement of dressage contains the stipulation that the poll shall be the highest point and the head shall be in front of the vertical except at piaffe which it may be vertical.

On Toby's picture, I have drawn the vertical line from the occipital point of the skull, which is the poll.  In order for the rule to be met, the under portion of the lower should not be behind that vertical line.

This is the way the old masters tried to ride their horses.  Look at Podhajsky and Oliveria, etc.........

This position should be applied even when schooling and there is a physical reason for doing so.  When the horse is placed in the contrary position the poll will be blocked from lateral flexion, and the neck will be blocked from lateral flexion and the wither muscles will not engage so the shoulders do not extend correctly.

Now, please bear with me.   Riding correctly in SB does impart to the rider the affects of the bit upon the horse.  I always allow my clients the opportunity to school with SB then I hang a simple snaffle and they ride it while SB is still on the horse.   Without fail, when the rider uses the snaffle bit the horse does tighten its entire neck, wither and shoulder structure.  Now I do not mean rigid, however, the free suppleness obtained in the correctly ridden SB is greatly diminished.

It is much a delicate and patient schooling process to obtain the correctness seen with Podhajsky and Oliveria when using the bit, but it can be done.   The problem is simply that riders immitate what they see in competitions and clinics. 

There is a misrepresentation of equine biomechanics when trainers and clinicians state that the neck facilitates the back.  The neck and wither muscles are connected to the shoulders and do not have a direct and proximate cause and effect upon the back.   The back raises correctly if the rider uses the leg rhythmically against the horse's torso to raise its back. 

The neck and wither muscles connected to the shoulders have a direct and proximate effect upon the extension and freedom of the forleg.

So when the rider schools the horse in a frame other than up and forward, the rider is actually applying blockage to the forehand.

These are facts that have been visually observed in thousands of videos of performance horses of any venue.   The relationship between the angles of the fore and hind cannon bones easily determines if the horse is moving balanced between foreleg and hindleg.  If the hind cannon has a greater degree of forward angle than the foreleg cannon, this demonstrates that the hindquarter is engaged while the forehand is blocked.   If the foreleg cannon has a greater degree of forward angle than the hind cannon, this demonstrates that the hindquarters are trailing.