U.S. Has Killed Bin Laden!!!!!!!!!!!

Barbara F · Grand Prix

U.S. Has Killed Bin Laden!!!!!!!!!!!

justice · Grand Prix

We'll see....and I AM an American. I have learned to not trust blindly the first report (from my current government) on ANYthing so I can only hope that this is true tho to wish someone dead is a strong sentiment.

It would be great if this action, assumedly true, will allow for a more peaceful and expiditious turn-around in our political climate but bin laden is not the first and far from the only.

Yes, it IS a poignant, kodak moment in our history that this man is now gone but it changes nothing.

-- Edited by justice on Monday 2nd of May 2011 05:59:41 AM

Goatgirl · Advanced

Being the sort that doens't kill a spider either....and having been a journalist - for newspapers - I am on side with both you Barbara and Justice (in not trusting what is reported - by media or government - any government. I'm sorry if I sound cynical....(bad mood too have to vote today in Canadian election and I'm not impressed with our candidates - have to pick the one that's less worse) -- I am glad they finally got him

anyway....what worries me is a back-lash now -- I'm thinking these terrorists think ahead -- they've probably got someone even more heinous lined up to take Bin Laden's place...And they're gonna be mad as hornets....

I'm thinking we need to worry....

Barnmouser Ash · Grand Prix

I agree, GG. Firstly, another non-spider killer here (LOL), so I was kind of disgusted by all of the folks in my Twitter stream rejoicing over the fact that he was dead. They seemed to fail to see the bigger picture as Barb pointed out; this will hopefully start to bring the terrorism to a manageable level, or something like that. More along the lines of "the mastermind has been taken out of the picture; here's what we can do next" than "that so-and-so deserved every ounce of agony they gave him!".

That being said, back to my original point that I agree with you, GG. I think we need to be afraid. As Americans especially, but those neighbouring in Canada and Mexico could feel the effects of whatever Pakistan/Taliban/al Qaeda have up their sleeve next. No doubt they are not going to be happy; they were harbouring him. Of course they knew, and of course they are not going to be pleased to hear that we just offed their head honcho.

I'm also pretty upset at the fact that so many people think his death = troops coming home. That couldn't be farther from the truth. If anything, I'm sure troops will be sent to Pakistan to control the violence or search for the rest of the Taliban leaders now. Having many relatives and friends in the US Military and deployed (including my own brother, heading to Afghanistan in the fall), I am by no means excited to realize that this will mean more fighting and more conflicts.

I'm torn: Happy that so many people may now be free of mindwashing Taliban rule (ie suicide bombing 12 year olds) and the like, or extremely worried and frustrated that there is going to be a huge backlash. I guess we'll see :\

Goatgirl · Advanced

OT -- best wishes to you and your family Barnmouser -- best bestest wishes to your brave brave brother and other family members -

-- Edited by Goatgirl on Monday 2nd of May 2011 12:14:48 PM

Barnmouser Ash · Grand Prix

Thanks GG :) I'll pass them along.

Barbara F · Grand Prix

Ashley,

Please pass along my best wishes to your brother and your other family and friends in the military. They accomplish the near-impossible with such courage and valor, and I hope and pray for the safe return of every one of them.

Re: Bin Laden, for sure we are hearing a VERY edited version of what has really been going on leading up to last night. I would imagine that more details will emerge over time.

When I heard the news, I admit that all I could think of was: YES!

He orchestrated Sept 11 and here's what he gets. Sorry if I sound like some sort of vigilante, but when I think of all those people who just went to work that day, or those passengers on the planes, and people trapped in the towers who knew they were going to die and had to call their loved ones to say good bye, it makes me sick.

I am GLAD they killed the mastermind behind the attack. I'm only sorry he got ten extra years that his victims didn't get.

Obama hasn't impressed me at all until now. and last night he impressed me.

Re: whether or not there will now be more or fewer terror attacks, as long as hate-filled ideology is running rampant, there will be terror attacks, but for now, the U.S. has cut off the head of the Al Qaeda snake and dealt a powerful psychological blow.

-- Edited by Barbara F on Monday 2nd of May 2011 04:58:22 PM

justice · Grand Prix

HUGE thanks from me, too, Ash : )

800 Military personell deploying to Afghanastan from New England.. : (

obumma gets credit cos/when his popularity points are low. Shall we now award him the Pulitzer, too? Gag me. Kill me now. Please.

-- Edited by justice on Monday 2nd of May 2011 06:01:33 PM

Barbara F · Grand Prix

Lol. Ok, so that Nobel Peace Prize might have been awarded a tad too early.

I'm Canadian, so I'm no expert on domestic U.S. politics, but from an outside view, Obama hasn't exactly exuded the type of strength and conviction I would hope to see in a U.S. President.

In this case though, I'm thinking "well done".

Barnmouser Ash · Grand Prix

Thanks everyone ;) I'll pass along the well wishes.

Re Obama's performance: Honestly, I'm a bad American. I don't keep up enough with all sides of the story to fairly judge whether or not he's a good or bad president. In the past, I've been too young to care or understand, so I've got no real basis for comparison. It would be fare to say he's done a good job thus far in my mildly uneducated eyes, I suppose. Not to say I'm entirely ignorant to how my government works, but there are a ton of factors that play into just how well-informed I can possibly be (See: media/etc).

Re Nobel Prize: (Insert laughing smiley here) - He may deserve a gold star -now-, but the Nobel Prize was kind of a joke when he got it. I'm sure he's a lovely man with a kind heart, but I really don't see what he accomplished up until now to deserve that. :\ My $0.02

spirithorse · Advanced

I have only one thing to say:
I am glad he had to look an American soldier in the eye as the soldier pulled the trigger.

Geoffrey Pannell · Well Schooled

Since when has assasination become justice!!!

The Americains have handed Osama what he wanted, Martyrdom!

The way to demistify this man was not to kill him but to bring to a court room and put him on trial.

The world would have seen him as the hateful and hatefilled old man screaming from the dock or lying from the witness box.

The last thing he wanted was to be put on trial, to be convicted, and he would have been convicted, then spend the rest of his life in jail. But instead, he got exactly what he wanted- to be shot mid-jihad and get a fast track to paradise.

Not very clever!

justice · Grand Prix

Personally, I think he would have been a martyr if taken to prison, alive for all to see, peformance ad nauseam (trial) and the media attention would feed his ugly regime beyond fat, even farther beyond humanity. A prisoner in the USA, as he would be imprisoned here, 'specially a political prisoner, can potentially have a sweet life not to mention access to any and all things. And you KNOW he ain't poor!

For our citizens that were victimized and blown up in the Trade Centers and subsequent war, THIS [term of choice here] is at least done, martyr or not.

Or so we have been told : )

Barbara F · Grand Prix

Hi Geoffrey,

You and I are usually on the same page, but I'm going to disagree on this one.

First of all, they knew he would be armed and would fight. What should they have done? Not gone after him? Either they were going to go after him and very likely kill him, or they were not going to go after him.

As I said in my original post, I don't even kill a spider, but I do have satisfaction knowing the Americans hunted him down and killed him. after watching in agony as those people jumped to their deaths from the twin towers, I have no sympathy for Bin Laden whatsoever and I can think of no contemporary military/religious/political leader to do or inspire more evil than he has.

I also believe that there would be no point in bringing Bin Laden to trial. What would be gained, other than more publicity for him and his cause?

Interestingly, Time magazine used the same cover theme for him this week as they used to announce the death of Hitler.

-- Edited by Barbara F on Thursday 5th of May 2011 08:49:03 PM

Barnmouser Ash · Grand Prix

Just a note for you, Barb: Heard today that bin Laden and 4 of the 5? (don't quote me on the numbers) killed were not armed at all. Apparently he'd been living in the Pakistani mansion for 5 years... yech.

Barbara F · Grand Prix

Hi Ash,

We'll NEVER know what really happened, but I sure hope people don't start second-guessing those astonishingly brave and capable SEALS. They were in a situation that we can't possibly fathom. A moment's hesitation, one mistake, and you're dead. You make a decision and do what you need to do.

Just as an aside, it makes no difference to me personally whether or not Bin Laden was armed. The people in the towers and the planes weren't armed either.

justice · Grand Prix

With you on this one all the way. So bin laden and several others were not armed.....nor were most if not ALL of the 3000+ Trade Center victims.

-- Edited by justice on Thursday 5th of May 2011 09:00:53 PM

Marlene · Advanced

I think they did it right, execute him, dump him in the ocean. Why risk more soldiers, guards lives trying to take him back and put him on trial. He of all people did not deserve the dignity of going through the US justice system. And he didn't deserve any of the protections of prisoners of war, he was never brave enough to be a soldier anyway. A coward that let others do his dirty work. Those who would make a martyr out of him would do it anyway. Good riddance I say.

-- Edited by Marlene on Thursday 5th of May 2011 09:12:30 PM

Geoffrey Pannell · Well Schooled

So Does everyone think that the Nuramberg trials after the 2WW were a waist of time and effort?? Does no-one think that the over the top celebrations are going to do anything but inflame the combatants even more. If everyone in the world takes an eye for an eye , then the whole world is blind.

Barbara F · Grand Prix

Hi Geoffrey,

Good points.

Some answers from my point of view.

1. The Nuremberg trials were not a waste of time, and they, in fact, helped to expose the atrocities of the Nazi regime.

2. I'm not hearing of any ongoing over-the-top celebrations and I don't believe the U.S. celebrations at the White House or Ground Zero on the night of the death announcement were out of line at all. They were a natural response, considering the terror he reined down on their country.

I also don't believe American jubilation at Bin Laden's death will further inflame any terrorists groups. They are already inflamed. What specific U.S. action caused 9/11? It was in the works for years.

3. The eye for an eye thing. This one is tougher. I don't think everyone in the world should take an eye for an eye, but state-ordered targeted killing is nothing new. We just don't hear about it.

We are living in a very different world from post WWII. We now have hate-filled zealots wreaking horrific terror attacks on civilians around the globe in times of peace.

For years, the U.S. was trying to find Bin Laden. They found him living in luxury in Pakistan, in a home that stood out like a sore thumb, which could not have happened without the cooperation of the Pakistani government.

What should the Americans have done? Not gone in after him?

-- Edited by Barbara F on Friday 6th of May 2011 09:44:47 AM

Jackie Cochran · Advanced

Interesting discussion.

Arab culture understands revenge. Odd as it may seem the USA government probably stands higher in the estimation of some Arabs because we did not give up even though it took 10 years. Revenge has long been part of the Arab culture, at least it was when the Blunts and Raswan were in the Arabian/Syrian desert buying Arabian horses.

And yes, I think it will cause some more terrorist attacks. That is the thing about revenge, blood feuds can last for many generations.

spirithorse · Advanced

Well;
the fact that he was executed under the orders of a President who's past has no basis in fact, raises for me this: I believe that Obama is in fact a plant, by some organization to destroy America from within and he is doing a bang up job.
Whe execute the one man who has the ability to provide the most information? Cause he has information about Obama.
Think about it.

Geoffrey Pannell · Well Schooled

now your just being silly Allen!!
There are four major reasons why bin laden hated America
1. Their unqualified support for Israel.
2. Support for the despots that rule in countries like Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Jordan and Iran under the Shah.
3. Failure to continue to support the Afghans after they defeated the Soviets.
4. Maintaining troops in Saudi Arabia.
As for the rejoising, we had the first three pages of every capital city newspaper reporting just that. Our own Prime minister even came out and said it was a day to celabrate. We shouldnt be supporting government sanctioned murder. The same thing is happening in Libya, with the bombing of Gaddafi's house. If we dont bring these people to justuce, and that means a courtroom not the point of a gun, we are sinking to the same barbaric level. Someboby must take the moral high ground.

Jackie Cochran · Advanced

Geoffrey, what you are talking about has been going on for decades. If Bin Laden had been a head of state it would be illegal for a president to order this. That law got passed only a few decades ago. We Americans, we tend to make progress slowly. We are a cantankerous lot who can rarely agree on anything.

I was thinking. Hilary Clinton would have made the same call. So would have McCain.

Thank you Geoffrey for pointing out the obvious. I don't think you will get many Americans to agree with you, mainly because it was Bin Laden. Don't fall into the trap of thinking that we are inherently nice people, us Americans can be nice, generous, and helpful, but we can also be extremely nasty people, just talk to an American black, Native American, Chinese, Japanese, Irish, etc., etc., etc., as well as the Vietnamese. We the people can be nice, but our government has been less than saintly throughout our history. Give us a few more centuries, we will probably turn out pretty good. We are an experiment doing what no one else had tried, a representative republic, NOT a direct democracy. Even so, in my own lifetime, we the people of the United States of America have started to correct our serious flaws of legal institutionalized racism and sexism. We the people finally got the US government out of Vietnam. We the people got public education and public health widespread (yes, both are imperfect.) This country has improved immensely since I was born.

I lived in two Latin American countries as a kid. I understand why people in other countries hate us, and I do not blame them one bit. The two countries I lived in ended up in military dictatorships after we moved back to the US. Gringo go home--I agree.

This is a great country. However our government often sucks.

Geoffrey Pannell · Well Schooled

Not trying to get anyone to agree or disagree Jackie, just adding a different perspective to the thread. Sometimes someone has to state the obvious, hold a mirror up to the masses so to speak. I know two friends that have given their lives in Afghanistan and just don't see the point of it all!!

Jackie Cochran · Advanced

Good for you Geoffrey.
My sympathy about you loosing friends in Afghanistan. Australia has always been a steadfast ally to the USA, one we don't always deserve.

Barbara F · Grand Prix

Bin Laden never laid out his specific political policy, but rather he laid out grievances. One the biggest was the U.S. presence in Saudi Arabia - in particular a female military presence there, where women are not even allowed to drive.

Bin Laden envisioned an world-wide strict Islamic caliphate, and I believe that's what drove him , although now we'll never know.

Bottom line is that he was a combatant in war and not a common criminal. The military were sent in to kill him as they kill other combatants, which is why there aren't any Western countries (that I know of) who are condemning the killing.

The world and the rules of warfare have changed since 9/11.

-- Edited by Barbara F on Saturday 7th of May 2011 11:33:35 AM

Goatgirl · Advanced

Although I am GLAD that Bin Laden has been found and 'taken out' - I don't think any death should be celebrated - I find it sad that Bin Laden was so twisted in his thinking - so filled with hate and without reason....- it's sad and tragic - I just think there was a person with an ability to lead - if he wasn't so sick and twisted hate filled he could have accomplished some great things - he obviously was born to lead -

Him being shot - (again I'm glad) But I think
He should have been brought forward - and tried like the war criminal he was - the outcome would be the same - his life had to be taken but Dumping his body at sea - that is jus odd to me - why??

I'm missing something.

As for President Obama - I like him way more than the who the States had in office before - But I'm a Canadian (totally sick that Harper was once again re-elected - HE scares me) - so I don't know - I don't live in the states....I just like Obama waaaay more than Harper --
but then -- really the Canadian Liberals are like the Conservative parties in the U.S. - so maybe not...(I had to study political science and U.S./Canada relations in journalism school - was interesting)

I have relatives in New York - who work in NYC - and that day - those images - will be burned on my brain forever -

I am just worried that a hornets nest has been stirred up - this whole terrorist thing is like fighting a bog fire - it travels underground and you just hope to catch where it pops up next to stomp it out...

Afganistan - it's heart breaking - and frightening - because history shows us that countries that go in there to fight -- it's...well - they get their butts kicked...-

Anyway it's all just sad -- the world is so changed since 911 --

Flip-Flop Cowgirl · Foal

I am torn about all of this. As an American I am proud of the Seal Team 6 for getting him, as a Christian I try not to celebrate his death because the bible says not to. As a relative and friend of many in the military, one of which heading over there very soon I know this does not mean the end at all, chances are there is going to be a back lash of some sort, but i will always hope that the Al Queda and Taleban (i dont know their relevance anymore) see that we are strong and they cant break us down and surrender.

spirithorse · Advanced

Should we all stick our heads in the sand and let a new hilter come forth to reek havoc upon the world?

Unconditional love means one has the compassion to say enough is enough. One does not give drugs to a drug addict, so one should not say and do things that glorify the hideous actions of extremists no matter the religion or culture.

Remember a guy named Kennedy who gave an ultimatum to Castro and Russia? A man of honor and courage......

Obama is a man who lacks true integrity, he is all about himself and his glory. Yes, he made a decision, but he had no real choice either. It was a decision based upon politics not what is right. [Remember his positions on the war on terror,etc.]

Remember a man named Clinton.....he had several opportunities to have Ben Laden in custody without using our military, he refused......no integrity.

Reality check, to those who would choose to attack Americans anywhere in the world, we have the means and the opportunity to bring you to justice no matter the circumstances. We need to be the dragon, standing tall and honorable, defending Mother Earth and her inhabitants without reserve from extremists.

-- Edited by spirithorse on Tuesday 10th of May 2011 01:52:53 AM

-- Edited by spirithorse on Tuesday 10th of May 2011 01:57:25 AM

Goatgirl · Advanced

I truly hope that when you say 'we need to the dragon' you speak of all nations and all people of good character and not simply the United States.
The United States - does not have the right to go into any other nation - or bully other Nations - We all know the United States became is the only Super Power in the World since the collapse of the USSR - however - when one country declares itself 'the world police' and flexes its muscle - or bullies other nations - then it creates problems for itself - and its citizens

Kennedy - he was a man - he accomplished much good - but he was a man who had his own agenda and not always honourable either . Infact during his term in office - there was a Canadian election - one canditate - was compliant with Kennedy's stance - the other did not get along with Kennedy - Kennedy sent some of his spin doctors etc - to help the candidate he 'got along with ' to help ensure that this man had the best chance of coming to power. -- that does not speak of integrity or honour.. - he was a politician with all that implies.

I'm sorry - but I had to say something. But the statement re. dragon - The planet must be protected by all nations and all nations must come together as equals with respect for each-other's cultures and religions and histories.....

-- Edited by Goatgirl on Tuesday 10th of May 2011 09:36:27 PM

Goatgirl · Advanced

Please do not forget - it is not just American troops in Afganistan - Canadian men and women are over there too - other countries are also in there - The second world war was won by the allies - it's nations working together that over-comes...

i'll shut up now

justice · Grand Prix

Don't ever shut up, GG, you are not alone in your thinking. At all ; )

bin laden is now gone. I am still here. When he was alive we knew who to deal with so.... NOW what?

I am American. I think we, as a people, generally ARE arrogant, for sure. I certainly don't believe that we should always step IN to another country's issues even tho we do. BUT. When another country falls for ANY reason, we had better be first to step up financially and supportively (military if warranted/health/housing), and in that order. We are ALWAYS the first one called upon. It is ALWAYS expected of us. We have denied no-one the basic assistance of life support, effective or not. And if we DON'T offer it up, we are BAD. If we DO: BAD. Pick ONE, folks. USA will disappoint someone every day, no matter what we do, where we go, whom we serve. We have become complacent because of that I wonder....since we seem to do no right, globally yet are expected to act anyway. We, the citizens, pay HUGE federal taxes (as well as State) so that we can be labeled the rediculously appointed "good guy"/asshat that everybody loves to hate yet can't/WON'T live without. Yes, we glorify the hollow, villify the bluecollar, live exclusively off the middle class. Got too many right-wing koolaid drinkers in the wrong places with too much say and the left wing is so far out there now that they couldn't find their butts with an arrow. But gee, everybody wants to live HERE.....

HOWEVER. I am still proud of and ever greatful for my country's number one asset: FREEDOM. And thank you to ALL the countries that have aided in the mainetnance of it, including my own. I CAN legally speak about how I feel, publically as well as privately and STILL in my first language, on any subject. I CAN and DO believe in the GOD of my choice in my own way, time and place. I CAN achieve the highest level of education at the school of my good fortune to be accepted by. I CAN shop for whatever where-ever and know that the supply WILL likely be there. I don't HAVE to sell what I grow/create at government set rates and I CAN essentially charge whatever for my services if I OPT to work for MYSELF. I can live WHERE I choose. I am NOT obligated to FOLLOW behind anybody. My husband and I are EQUAL. Sweet package, if you ask me : )

-- Edited by justice on Wednesday 11th of May 2011 09:03:18 AM

spirithorse · Advanced

being the dragon means all 'good' people must be the dragon.
However, politics always gets in the way.

Goatgirl · Advanced

So true - Justice - so true.

We here in Canada also free -- and so lucky so very lucky - to still maintain our unique cultures, languages, religions, -- My parents both grew up in Nazi Germany - my paternal grandfather was put into a concentration camp for opposing the regime, - the police threatened to imprison my maternal grandmother when she did not send my mother to the Hitler youth because my mother did not like it. People lived in fear.. - in a totalitarian regime - Growing up - my parents inspired in me a true appreciation of how fortunate we are in North America.

Often people do not realize how fortunate we are - they take it forgranted - I recently read Prisoner of Tehran - about the fall of the Shaw in Iran - in the late 70's - it was written by a woman who was imprisoned and tortured as a 18 year old girl ( it hit home because she's my age). So while I was worrying about horses, clothes, school, mad at my parents for not letting me stay out later - she was in a prison with other young women - tortured and raped - for simply asking questions.....the woman eventually escaped to Canada....a good but eye-opening read...for someone who grew up not wanting or in fear.

-- Edited by Goatgirl on Wednesday 11th of May 2011 10:59:03 AM

spirithorse · Advanced

Freedom?
I shan't tell you then of how Americans are losing their civil rights in federal court rooms, where the states and their employees are being protected by federal judges.
Nor how U.S. Attorneys willfully participate in the corruption by state officials by protecting state and federal employees from civil and criminal prosecution.
Nor how the FBI willfully protects federal and state employees from civil and criminal prosecution.
Nor how the Congress is destroying our Constitution by their failures upholding it, as in immigration and oh yes, allowing an impeached federal judge to become a congressman in violation of the Constitution.

And FYI, I hold a whole lot of evidence here in the State of Utah that clearly documents this "beyond a reasonable doubt".

Freedom, well yes but losing it fast.

-- Edited by spirithorse on Thursday 12th of May 2011 01:06:05 AM

-- Edited by spirithorse on Thursday 12th of May 2011 01:08:44 AM

-- Edited by spirithorse on Thursday 12th of May 2011 01:10:42 AM

justice · Grand Prix

Yes, Alan, we are all going to hell in a handbasket and thru no fault of our own, reserve your seat now, but in the meantime, try to enjoy SOME of the ride anyway. I assume you aren't in prison, dead or homeless yet : )

I chose NOT to list ALL of our negatives here, not Barb's point and I thought it unnecessary and unwarranted to be that profuse or jaded in my displeasure with my current government. Is it ILLEGAL, to the tune of a 2300$ fine, if found NOT to have health insurance in YOUR state? Do YOU pay a 500$ surcharge on your car insurance for 3 years on a one time parking ticket, no other offenses? Do YOU pay 28% on the dollar in State taxes on inheritances? There isn't one State out there that DOESN'T have issues.

This thread is about obl and the effects of his termination, not the inner crappings of our government. The USA has been beat, battered and maligned forever, justifyed or not, by him and every other country, even by Her residents since Her inception and I felt the patriotic desire to defend Her, to remind myself and those that are open of the good that DOES exist, even if just for a moment, just for now. I wanted to feel that our military and others are not working/dying/scared in vain. They might like to know that, too. Other than financial donation and a Flag on every vehicle, I have little other way to support those that protect my LIFE if not my comfort.

I actively work toward a better way thru community service (fire dept; officer positions allow us info and authority not available to the public on many occasions), voting even tho I think that my National vote does not count (I am convinced that obama was designed and assigned), I am regularly engaged within the politics of my Town and State. We, here in MA, even without a Kennedy and an effective (in a GOOD way) governor, are faring within reason. Of COURSE no place is perfect, evidently not Utah, either : ) but it is what we have, it's where we are, up to each of US to make it work. We are FREE to make changes : ) I celebrate and appreciate not the man's death but that I have this freedom for ANOTHER day. We'll see about tomorrow, tomorrow.

-- Edited by justice on Thursday 12th of May 2011 08:40:42 AM

dbliron · Advanced

Right on, Goatgirl and Justice!

We are incredibly fortunate to live within the US and/or Canada. Our systems are not perfect; nothing governed by human nature will be perfect, but we enjoy amazing personal freedoms, and we should be proud of that as well as of our willingness to commit resources which improve the lives of others.

With respect to bin Laden, I'd have to say that my feelings are mixed. While I'm glad on some internal level that an international scourge has been immobilized, I'm also aware that another may, and likely will, take his place. Also, I do feel that "any man's death diminishes me". I don't know what the right answer is, and I'm grateful that I was not the person who had to make the decision, but I think that as mankind evolves we need to think about less extreme measures. We have come a long way with regard to our treatment of animals, but we have some distance to go when it comes to human beings.

I'm with Justice - I can and do celebrate the freedom bin Laden's death provides us, however fleeting, but I can't celebrate the death of the man.

Jackie Cochran · Advanced

As an ex-Foreign Service brat (Chile 1957-1960, Uruguay 1960-1963) I came back to this country just before Kennedy was assasinated and the Civil Rights movement was finally getting strong. I assure you that in America of 1963 I had MUCH less freedom than I have now (Caucasian woman). We Americans are an experiment. We are not perfect by any means but the improvement since I returned here has been nothing less than amazing.

I remember going down Rt. 1 in 1964 to Florida, becoming more and more dismayed at the utter poverty of both whites and blacks and at the general acceptance of things that were greatly similar to what I saw in South America. But you know what? WE, the American people, fixed it. Our system is still highly imperfect still, but soooooo much better than when I came back. And it was not because of the people in charge at that time, it is because we, the American people, got out and assembled peacefully and met government violence over and over and over again until we were heard and our petitions were acted upon.

Allan, I like you a lot, but you are being partially fooled by the type of people who wrote the book on how to fool people. This type of people ruled in South America, they ruled in Nazi Europe, they ruled in Communist Russia, etc., same type of people, same results. On the Right and on the Left, the same type of people working hard to fool us all using the same methods. I am not going to change you, I don't want to change you, this is America, we need everyone's voice. Otherwise it won't work.

My American citizenship my most precious possession. I consider America to be the most amazing country to ever have existed. The American Revolution finally enabled the normal working exploited classes to have a right to influence how they are governed. It took a while, but we, the American people finally got it done.

I am so lucky to live here in spite of our considerable problems and I have no desire to live anywhere else. Yeah, our government often sucks, but we get to change it regularly. It is not our fault that ALL politicians are venal, corrupt, immoral, amoral, etc., etc., etc., no matter which system or which country, most politicians seem to be the same.

Fire fighters, policemen and police women, and all the military families are our true heroes. I salute you all.

Now to get back to truly important things, like how in the world did they find a horse big enough for Osama bin Laden to ride in Afghanistan?

justice · Grand Prix

Just this conversation alone would be viewed as treason and evoke a subsequent death penalty in [several] other countries. I think that is worth noting : )

-- Edited by justice on Thursday 12th of May 2011 01:47:31 PM

Jackie Cochran · Advanced

You are right Justice. Not all other countries, but quite a few.

Goatgirl · Advanced

I was thinking the same thing Justice -- there are many countries where all of us would be tortured and pushin' up daisies for the comments we've made here...

We ARE lucky we can vote (we may not like the choice of candidates -) but we don't have to worry about being shot, having our fingers chopped off -, we can walk on our streets and speak freely without fear of imprisonment...

women in North America - we're as close to 'equality' with men as we've been in centuries - perhaps ever - we still have a long way to go - perhaps we (women will never not have to fear attack by some 'disturbed' men) but compared to women in Afganistan and some/many other nations - we are so very lucky....

The media a few days a go reported that Bin Laden lived quite openly in Pakistan?

What now??

-- Edited by Goatgirl on Thursday 12th of May 2011 05:24:30 PM

Emiry · Advanced

I have one statement to make- it took us 10 years to find Osama Bin Laden. I wonder what else has slipped under the radar, and terrified of what it might be.

But onto the Canadian note: I really, REALLY hope the Liberals tear the party down and rebuild it in a method, with a leader that the people can be proud of. Harper...no comment and Layton belongs in the opposition.

And unto all government notes, this is a quote that was told to me the 2 years I did history "Democracy is the worst form of government. Except for all those others we've tried"