Pulling on the inside rein to bend the neck so the horse will "give"?

Barbara F · Grand Prix

Pulling on the inside rein to bend the neck so the horse will "give"?

Jackie Cochran · Advanced

It sort of sounds like Baucher's extreme neck flexions to the side. It also sounds like the Western one-rein-stop method.

The BIG ENORMOUS problem with this technique is that it can teach the horse to be rubber-necked, willing to turn his neck all the way to one side while going where he (the horse) wants. And let me tell you there is nothing more frightening than trying to turn a horse away from something and the horse keeps charging ahead even though you've got his head almost back to your knee (AND the horse can't see where it is going.) It has not happened to me because I learned early about the dangers, but I've seen other riders go through it. One lady I had to teach how to turn the horse just using outside aids (leg and indirect rein of opposition) when her green broke horse figured out that this (extreme bending of the neck to one side) was the ideal method to avoid obeying her inside direct rein of opposition.

I consider this a dangerous technique for both horse and rider. No matter how many times it may "work" there is always the danger that the horse will use this maneuver as a supremely effective method of resisting his rider. MUCH better to learn how to use the aids properly, and to learn how to lighten the aids for better, more prompt responses from the horse.

barnfrog · Advanced

Sounds like western trainers, or SJ/AVG in action (which is pulling back). One should NEVER PULL against the horse. It is the ideal of supping gone awry for a number of reasons. If the horse 'gives' the neck, it beomes rubberneck, and more onto the forehand.

So, what is the 'idea' based upon? Lateral flexibility leads to longitudinal flexion OVER TIME. The horse is 'positioned' (mm left or right) at the atlas/poll. In this way the horse mobilizes the jaw without offering longitdinal flexion which is yet unwanted. Those who use sawing actions on the bars do get flexion longitudinall and usually at the WRONG vertebral body (second/third/btv/etc). At the most 'positioning the horse' should mobilize/give the jaw and chew/swallow. More is the action of the hand against the horse('s bars).

In addition it actually it sounds NOTHING like Baucherist flexion (BSM), because ther should be NO pulling the horse around. Baucher flexions start with mobilization of the jaw by lifting the bit upward on the corners of mouth, horse stays high/light/chews/swallows. Second is minute lateral flexions without pulling backward either, again chew/relax. ONLY if the horse can do this does the handler ask the horse to bend (not at the withers but high in the neck), and as it fills out the outside rein, the rein is yielded, to the horse follows fdo. All done without the weight of the rider.

What is interesting is that this is method is usually done on the 'resistant side' and the problem is actually on the opposite side.

Jackie Cochran · Advanced

Hi Barnfrog, I think you are talking about Baucher's 2nd method where he corrected many of his earlier problems.

In Google books I looked at their copy of an early edition of Baucher's book and it clearly shows, in a line drawing of the "ideal" lateral flexion, the horse's neck bent in the middle and the horse's face is facing to the rear, not the subtle lateral flexion at the poll. I don't have much against Baucher's later methods, but a lot of people glom on to his earlier methods and then say their methods are based on "classical" dressage.

The extreme curving of the horse's neck to one side can be a valuable therapeutic tool, but only when done by a trained equine physical therapist, and they usually do it from the ground, not from the horse's back.

I have seen videos of Western trainers training their horse to "give" to an extreme opening rein, it seemed to me that they reward (release) the horse each time it gives to a light rein signal. Then they keep on rewarding this give until the horse stands there with his neck to the side at an almost 90 degree angle from the body. This may take a while, depends on the skill and sensitivity of the trainer.

I still think it is a bad idea! (except for physical therapy by a trained professional.)

spirithorse · Advanced

Lateral flexion of the neck cannot be obtained in the manner presented.

barnfrog · Advanced

An opening rein should not pull back, and it never should be used in a vacumn (without an outside connection). And the 'in extreme flexion' of BSM, is done with a lifted hand or a wrist turning the key outward.

For sure lateral flexion can be done with pulling backward, and it will bend will occur only in the neck, and at the withers to poll. This truncates the neck and puts the weight on the outside shoulder.

spirithorse · Advanced

Very well stated Barnfrog
I have always never allowed my clients to ask for lateral flexion in the Baucher or cowboy method.
I teach to ask with the inside rein, give a slight release, ask again........keeping the outside rein aid matching the inside rein aid.
I tell my clients that they should see the nose of the horse coming to the inside...this is creating lateral flexion at the poll and will allow the neck to 'bend' in the following.

barnfrog · Advanced

Lateral flexions (flick the nuchal ligament over, flexion in mm) by lifting the bit in the corner of the lip in hand are BSM, this comes after teaching the horse to remain high/light/poised. Therefore there is very progressive.

I either ask by a step with a light lifting on one rein or turning thumb over taking on one side while stilling the other rather than "ask with the inside rein, give a slight release, ask again........keeping the outside rein aid matching the inside rein aid." It is HOW one asks as well? Fist/closed hand/turning thumb out/open rein/neck reain?

Unless done in hand the nose should not come in, the rider should merely see the inside eyelashes at most, more than that and the horse falls over the outside shoulder. The slight ateral flexion (aka position) is at the axis, not the poll. Bending is evenly done through the entire horse.

Marlene · Advanced

I know practically nothing about dressage (except it looks cool when done nicely), so i can't speak to its purpose in that respect. However last year along with a few other issues, I discovered that occasionally my Arab gets kooky and stupid when out on the trail. I tried several things, which sometimes worked, letting him stop to think, letting him approach, retreat then approach again, turning in circles. Sometimes he just got more stupid to the point we were crossways on the trail backing up toward steep embankments. If I used this somewhat extreme flexion at that point it did seem to stop him, gave him a moment to calm down and think, and often got him out of reverse gear. At that time he was capable of going from pissy to bucky, and anything that brought his brain forward was a welcome relief to both of us. I have no idea why it helped, or if it was a coincidence, but we eventually did have fewer of these little "episodes". so I'm in favor of whatever works that isn't too heavy handed. A one rein stop while moving forward at more than a slow walk could be pretty dangerous, so I wouldn't try that on this guy. But if he's bucky without too much momentum, it seems to reset his brain at least long enough for me to get some control. Naturally you have to have explored as many ideas as you can think of as to why they are doing stupid stuff anyway first, like checking saddle fit, feet, horoscope etc.

Barbara F · Grand Prix

What is a one rein stop, Marlene? I've heard the term, but I don't know what it is.

Queenrider · Advanced

If you have correct contact you never have to pull. If you are pulling then the rein is too long. You never use hand without leg as well. Leg comes first. Whoever is teaching her to pull is wrong.

Marlene · Advanced

I'm certainly not an expert on the one rein stop, but generally, the idea is that if your horse is taking his own head and not listening to the usual gentle direction from the rein, pulling one rein is more effective than both at the same time, which most any horse can out muscle a rider if pulling back with both. Also if your horse is light on the front end, as my Arab is when he gets excited, if I pulled back too forcefully with both reins, he could easily get airborn, and pulling back could theoretically risk having a horse fall backwards on a rear. If I pull one rein(again even so not at the peak of a rear), flexing him to one side or the other, it may pull him in a circle or he will just stop and pause, giving me his head. We have practiced this in his calmer moments, I wouldn't recommend this just out of the blue with a pissy horse. At any rate it calms him, then I release, and with luck he proceeds more sensibly. I have heard of people trying to use it at speed and I think you seriously risk having your horse fall. The way I would do it is not to crank hard and suddenly, because with this horse it would just piss him off more. It is kind of a gentle but very firm way of taking control of his head, then released, repeated if necessary till he gets tired of moving in a circle or moves off decently instead. It's a fairly crude technique and as far as I can tell would have nothing to do with dressage, since those horses are already trained.

barnfrog · Advanced

Bending is a different thing than a one rein stop, but a one rein stop is the essence of crude. And IF one is going to use a pulley rein, it has to be against a fixed outside rein. Pulling on one rein on a distressed horse is a good way to get hurt (horse falls over). But a rider should NOT get into pulling BACK, that just makes a horse full against the handler even more.

Barbara F · Grand Prix

I asked my friend for more details and what she said was that she is to bend the horse's neck inward and hold until he gives.

Jackie Cochran · Advanced

I have a video by a Western trainer, and when the lady got up on the horse the first thing she talked about was "the horse giving me his face", where she had the horse's neck bent sideways until she could see the horse's whole face. She trained the horses to do this one step at a time, not a sudden yanking, shorten one rein, hold, horse yields, partially release, shorten rein further, hold, etc. until the horse would "give her his face".

I have never used this technique, mainly because I think horses should go mainly forward and that the horse needs to face the direction he is going! The most I've gotten is one full eye, usually saying "WHAT do you think you are doing!", and usually the horse does it himself to scold me for faulty use of the reins.

If I want to see a horse's face I get down on the ground and look at it from there. As I see it, once a horse learns that he can go forward even though his head is turned all around you are left with absolutely no control, plus the horse is moving without seeing where it is going. I have seen it happen to other riders.

Nikki Salo · Grand Prix

It sounds like a bit of suppling to me, I like to do that during the warm up, usually right at the beginning of the ride I'll do a couple bends to one side and than to the other side (just like I like to stretch before I ride or workout). If I'm having a problem during the ride, I'll do what Allan has said -- ride outside leg to inside rein with a little viberation on the rein.

barnfrog · Advanced

That kind of (excessive) bending is NOT suppling, it is truncating the neck at the base (withers) and puts all the weight onto the (outside) shoulder especially if it is done while moving (which it should never be). That kind of excessive makes a horse into a rubber neck, likely with a dropped chest in many cases.

What is the horse to give? All this ideas started (with a basis in traditional dressage) with all the really old dead western guys (many I knew) who studied dressage ideas. They only used a very light lateral flexibility/getting a mobile jaw taking the horses answers into consideration, but then their methods 'took on a life of their own'. People copied their anomalies, and if a little was good, more was better

IF excessive (rarely) the horse must be standing still/VERY upright (higher neck)/closed in its base of support/NEVER tilting the ears/and with a mobile jaw (which tells the handler 'enough').

What is it that the rider wants from this (excessivie) behavior? What is to be gained? And it is combined with outside leg to inside rein??????? That is against every traditional dressage training precept. In order to become straighter, the horse should 'stand on the outside rein' which means that the energy from the increased bend/inside hindleg is limited by the outside rein. Hence the trapezoidal shape of the horse is made more rectangular through movement. This comes from inside leg to outside rein (maintaining inside flexion lightly as well). To flip the nuchal ligament (lightly change flexion in millimeters) is one thing, to pull the inside rein (back) is another (and goes against the bars and balance of the horse).

Barb, ask your friend what she thinks she is soliciting and WHY. And if it makes ANY sense within the tradition of training horses (towards levels of collection). It is so interesting that people will 'do what they are told' by an 'instructor' without putting things in a frame of reference for future training.

Barbara F · Grand Prix

I got a bit of clarity yesterday that the technique is bending and holding until the horse gives, so perhaps I misinterpreted and was wrong in using the word "pulling" in my post title.

Is another way to do that much bending and holding without pulling the horse's head around that I haven't thought of?

-- Edited by Barbara F on Tuesday 21st of June 2011 11:41:28 AM

barnfrog · Advanced

One can lift the bit in the corner of the lips to get lateral flexion at the atlas/axis, but the only way to get bend (entire neck) is either to pull the horse around OR to push the head toward the bend (this is the manner in which BSM is used, but NOT for bend from the withers). Intention and actions are TOTALLY different.

merrymary · Yearling

Just want to weigh in on the one-rein stop: from my understanding it isn't just a rein cue, it also requires a leg cue to disengage the hindquarters. It should be taught first at a halt and from the ground, always with a gentle ask. When done correctly, it isn't crude, although to attempt it in any and all situations would be idiotic. I have used it in a few situations with success (like teaching not to break from walk to trot on the way home), but again it should be taught first and used gently.

Deborah Hopkins · Yearling

Sounds to me like your friend's coach is simply teaching your friend to bend her horse.
You hold the inside rein, hand moving slighly towards your hip, and the horse releases himself by bending.
It's not a big movement, for rider or horse, but it makes a big difference when you're riding circles!

barnfrog · Advanced

One never pulls the rein backward toward the hip unless its a last resort, this goes against the horse and its balance. Bend originates form the (placement of the) leg and form weight. It is enough to position the horse and ride it down the middle of the funnel of the aids. IF the rider acts backward (esp against the bars) the horse will tend to truncate the neck and run over the outside shoulder. Lifting the bit gently on the the inside corner of the mouth can get positioning w/o acting backwards (as can a sliightly opening rein). But causing the horse to 'give' (esp by HOLDING the aid) rather than pulsing it usually (if not always) results in imbalance and a horse which falls too low/closed (which is what many trainers/riders now want...great perhaps of western pleasure, but not the underlayment for an (upper level) dressage horse).