Like I said on my comment to the video Kay Russel, who ran the residential program at North Forks, would have CRUCIFIED me if I had treated one of her horses like that.  I also would probably have been thrown out of her school if I did not IMMEDIATELY ride better.

I used to honor and admire professional horsepeople (hunt seat & jumpers). but no longer.  What are the teachers of these riders thinking?  How can they make the big bucks teaching these people to ride SO BADLY?  People, if you have 5 pounds on pressure of contact on a horse that is not in a full gallop (20 mph on up, not a canter) you are using the reins to stay on the horse.  Dressage people seem to emphasize independent seats and hands but when I see riding like this I know that these people are fooling themselves and everyone else.  Hey, I took the knee rolls off of my dressage saddle, I have nothing holding me on, I am a cripple with no balance, and yet I can stay on and control a horse with just a few ounces of contact.  Why can't you?

I would not let any of these people up on a horse of mine unless there were no reins, and I would have to reteach them from the beginning, gallop position while the horse was on a lunge line--no reins.  Maybe after a few months I would let them use a jumping cavesson, no more.  I would also consider making up PAPER REINS to teach them true lightness.

Bad, bad, bad horsemanship.  I am ashamed of American riding (I am an American).     

"Black Beauty" yanked people's emotions.  It also started the end of totally abusive bearing reins.  It did not get rid of bearing reins which can be useful, but fashionable people started loosening them after a while.  ALL due to "Black Beauty".  Horsemen had been talking against them for decades to no avail.  Sometimes emotions have to be yanked.

"Uncle Tom's Cabin" yanked a lot of people's emotions.  This book ended up being one of many causes of the American Civil War and the end of slavery in the USA.  Why?  Because it showed the horrific abuse that most (not all) slaves endured.

I don't sell anything and I have never taken any money or material consideration from anybody or any company that makes any kind of horse tack. 

Personally I prefer bits--if the horses tell me that my hands are good enough.  Guilt?  Rarely nowadays (sometimes my body doesn't work right, then I feel guilty) but I do have a lot of guilt over what I put my beloved first horse through with the bit the first few years I rode him.  I have been trying to make up for it the past thirty years, on him and on every other horse I ride.  Hey, I feel guilty nowadays if I cause a horse any discomfort with a bitless bridle.  Those can hurt a horse too.  It just doesn't happen much any more (feeling guilt) because I learned how to use my rein aids effectively. 

Right now I am waiting for cooler weather and that wonderful moment that the horses tell me that it is all right for me to use a bit again.  I find the conversation between relaxed tongue and relaxed fingers irresistable, as long as the horse tell me it is all right. 

     

Good for you Figarocubed, you are teaching good horsemanship.

The problem is that people always seem to look elsewhere for the bad riding, rather than in the mirror.

That's one of the reasons I never got on the anti-rolkur bandwagon - not because I am pro-rolkur, but because I think it is a red herring that deflects attention away from the real issue, which I believe is bad riding by the amateur masses, often out of sheer ignorance.

-- Edited by Barbara F on Wednesday 27th of July 2011 06:27:06 PM

Barbara, I don't like the ignorant riding of the uneducated masses either, but I think that Rollkur is more like soring, done by professionals who are paid a lot of money by the horse's owner.  The horse wins, THEN the uneducated masses start copying them.  But the problem is that these new riders flock to people who are supposed to teach them good horsemanship and instead they are taught Rollkur, soring or its equivalents, so the new rider can also win at shows.  And since winning brings in big bucks it just continues.  The USDA has been trying to get rid of soring for DECADES, with the might of the US government behind it, and no matter how hard the government tries to stop it people decide they want to do it, and proceed.

We have to protest the abuse.  If us horsemen stay silent then NO ONE WILL SPEAK FOR THE HORSE.  The audiences don't realize the torture the horse go through to give them a good, exciting show, the audiences just want to be wowed and entertained.  When it gets too bad non-horsemen get involved to try to stop the abuse, then they want to get rid of bits, saddles, training, riding, and using the horse in any way.  Then what happens to horses?  Very few people can afford to keep a totally idle horse in the lap of luxury.  If us good horsepeople don't speak out we will either allow the abuse to continue (after all NO ONE KNOWLEDGEABLE IS SAYING ANYTHING so it must be all right), or we will eventually lose the right to ride our horses.

If the judges refuse to reward bad horsemanship then bad horsemanship will disappear in the show ring.  Even if the judge is required to give out ribbons they can rate the rides LOW, like a score of one to five?  What are the riders going to do, boast how they won a blue ribbon but couldn't even get a score of, say, 10?  Besides, don't judges have the power to excuse any horse from the ring that shows sign of lameness or abuse? 

Sure, speaking up ends up with people not liking me.  So what.  I owe too much to the species horse not to speak out at all, especially when you have given us horsemen a site to speak out on.  Do I do any good?  Probably not.  All I know is that if I do not speak out then people will say that the abuse MUST be good horsemanship because good horsemen never speak out against it.  That I cannot allow, thus my comments.

Thank you again Barbara for letting me speak where I can be heard.   

 

 

Well we could do something effective that does not involve putting up hundreds, thousands or millions of dollars for official protests that get blown off by the powers that be.

We could go up to the winners of the show classes and ask who their coaches/trainers/instructors etc. are, then thank the people profusely for saving us big bucks because now we can avoid these professionals and avoid hiring anyone they teach or buying any horse they train because they do not use or teach good horsemanship and they don't train the horse correctly.  By the hundredth person coming up and doing this maybe the message will get through.  Maybe.  People just like winning and winners.

But I am afraid it all goes back to the judges and stewards.  They are the ones who pick the winners, and they are the ones with the power to effectively protest abuse.  Unfortunately today they are apparently taught that abusive practices are good horsemanship.  So the abuse continues.

I don't have the energy to go to shows.  All I can do is set a good example and show the effectiveness of good horsemanship wherever I ride, and refuse to take lessons from anyone I think does not teach good riding or horsemanship.  Luckily I found a stable run with high standards. 

And you know something?  The higher the cost of the lessons often (not always) means a lower standard of horsemanship or riding.  Just because the barn is fancy and the horses sleek does not mean the riding or training is any good.  Just because the teacher or trainer has lots of blue ribbon and championships does not mean the riding or training is good.  Just because the stable's clients obviously have a lot of money does not mean that the horsemanship or riding is any good.  Just because the instructor is certified does not mean that the system they teach is any good.  Often any or all of this  means that the horsemanship, training and riding are abusive.  At least this is what I've seen.  And all I can do is not spend my money with the abusers. 

I have always taught to 'give' be elastic through the elbows and release -- thank god - I figured once I started watching that that it would be a promo. for bitless bridles - I do have one of those and use them when I have a student who is not quite 'there' with their hands -

that footage was heinous....fretting horses are horrible to see...

Having visited spruce and watched the Masters - I've seen some of the hardware the 'top' jumpers put in their horses mouths - looks like something from the spanish inquisition really - watched those horses gape round the course...it's not pretty...not good riding imho...but who am i to say...I don't know the names of some of most of those contraptions and wouldn't put it in my horse's mouth..

my parents lived up the road from an olympic eventer when I was younger and i watched him teach a few times...there was a rider on a horse that was quite 'out of control' - she said to the eventer/instructor -- 'i don't know what to do I've got a tom-thumb in his mouth now...and it's still no good.' The eventer sighed..looked at her and said 'you can get into that trap of using more and more, harsher and harsher bits....but eventually you're gonna hit the end...what are you gonna do then...You're just gonna have to learn to RIDE that horse..'

I will never forget those words....

We should be able to ride the horse with a thread for reins.. - we ride the body - ...not the head -- something that has been forgotten -- it's something I tell my beginners from the very very beginning...-suggest with your reins...ride the body...a horse can feel the slightest shift in the saddle...something they may not understand in the beginning - but I hope to plant the seed.


Unfortunately - go to any show any level anywhere - you'll see riders hanging on the horse's faces - hardware in the mouths...riders banging their horses mouths with the bits - and they are placed...instead of excused...

The quest for personal glory unfortunately comes at the expense of the animal...- it doesn't make sense to me that an animal should be a means to an end - but in the show world - it always seems to be that way.....for many - not all - it's not about the love of the animal...but about the ribbons and 'acclaim'

Hi folks;

Interesting and informative responses here.

I find that the images presented are a fair and balanced representation of the competitive riders in Europe and the States.

My background in riding has in fact, some cavalry focus.  Never pull on the bit!  Give the soft supple rein aid, softly hold momentarily and the release...never throwing away the contact.  And the modern day dependency upon the curb is atrocious, especially when seen in national and international competitions.

In discussions with numerous folks over the past 10 or so years, there seems to be the concenseous that modern competitive riders have acquired an underlying fear of losing control of the horse.  As Figarcubed stated, what happened to learning to use just the snaffle.....?

Please note I am referencing competitive riders and that is because I see so many good riders who do not compete........

As for the word abuse, egads that could be applied to a whole lot of things all of us see.  I just apply what FEI states about it and ask myself "am I causing pain and discomfort to my horse?"  Now I know that there are times we all cause discomfort to the horse, however, it should not be a consistently maintained thing.

I have a new friend whom is schooled in dressage in the German tradition and she has allowed me to show a few things the horses have taught me.  And she and the horse have stepped into a new realm of light aids and mutal communication.  One thing I said to her was, if you tighten your neck muscles then pull your head down to your shoulders and tighten your shoulders then you will understand what so many riders are doing to their horses.  We as riders should always ask our horse with the rein aid when required, then release it but do not release the connection.  Today my new friend discovered what I was talking about, and her responded positively.

I have discovered that so many trainers and clinicians do not have an eye for seeing the aid errors that we riders make.  And many of them whom do have the eye fail to be able to communicate to the rider the method to correct the mistake.  I am blessed to be able to ride during the year with a clinician who does have both the eye and the communication skills to teach me to correct a mistake I make.

i NEVER ride with more than a snaffle. I have ridden western with a leverage, but my horse hates it as much as I do, so she is in reining without. I love snaffles, as long as your soft and they arent cracker jacking on the horses tongue. I do have a mare, that I do often have to have a slightly heavier hand and seat because she is extremely hot and tries to run through, she is a powerful horse for me. I doubt it could do much harm. I've started every horse I have ever owned in a snaffle. Loyal to the end. I've been told to use a gag for my horse, but when you think about it..no horse ever needs harsher anything. You really do need to learn how to ride it. As well, that Allen Buck who posted the video? He often contradicts himself I see. Bits are cruel, but eventing is not? Yea, okay. Sure. I enjoy eventing and so does my horse.

Goatgirl wrote:

---

I have always taught to 'give' be elastic through the elbows and release -- thank god - I figured once I started watching that that it would be a promo. for bitless bridles - I do have one of those and use them when I have a student who is not quite 'there' with their hands -

that footage was heinous....fretting horses are horrible to see...

Having visited spruce and watched the Masters - I've seen some of the hardware the 'top' jumpers put in their horses mouths - looks like something from the spanish inquisition really - watched those horses gape round the course...it's not pretty...not good riding imho...but who am i to say...I don't know the names of some of most of those contraptions and wouldn't put it in my horse's mouth..

my parents lived up the road from an olympic eventer when I was younger and i watched him teach a few times...there was a rider on a horse that was quite 'out of control' - she said to the eventer/instructor -- 'i don't know what to do I've got a tom-thumb in his mouth now...and it's still no good.' The eventer sighed..looked at her and said 'you can get into that trap of using more and more, harsher and harsher bits....but eventually you're gonna hit the end...what are you gonna do then...You're just gonna have to learn to RIDE that horse..'

I will never forget those words....

We should be able to ride the horse with a thread for reins.. - we ride the body - ...not the head -- something that has been forgotten -- it's something I tell my beginners from the very very beginning...-suggest with your reins...ride the body...a horse can feel the slightest shift in the saddle...something they may not understand in the beginning - but I hope to plant the seed.


Unfortunately - go to any show any level anywhere - you'll see riders hanging on the horse's faces - hardware in the mouths...riders banging their horses mouths with the bits - and they are placed...instead of excused...

The quest for personal glory unfortunately comes at the expense of the animal...- it doesn't make sense to me that an animal should be a means to an end - but in the show world - it always seems to be that way.....for many - not all - it's not about the love of the animal...but about the ribbons and 'acclaim'

---

 

-- Edited by dressagejumperdiva on Monday 29th of August 2011 01:28:04 AM

reins are a curse but humans inherantly balance with their hands so teach them to balnce through their sest and legs and riding will improve and horses wont suffer.. i think riders need to learn more about how we work before we start blaming horses, and trainers for our faults.

look at yourself as a human and learn how you work and function you may we be surprised ???