Really? Is this what we've come to?

Barbara F · Grand Prix

Really? Is this what we've come to?

Jackie Cochran · Advanced

The USA government has been working for DECADES (since the early 1970's?) to end soring on the TWH show horses.

The trainers know that soring hurts the horses. They do not care, all the trainers and riders care about is the thrill of riding a Big Lick horse.

This is just something I'm wondering about. Does anybody check the pasterns for signs of soring on the high stepping American Saddlebreds, the high stepping Park horses in the Morgan and Arabian shows, and the high stepping dressage show horses for signs of soring? I know decades ago the Arabians checked for hoof length and shoe weight, but I do not remember if they checked for soring.

It often seems that some people will do anything to their horses just so they can win a horse show class. And this has been going on since the first horse show. Winning trumps good horsemanship.

Marlene · Advanced

It is very troubling that anyone should have to examine horses for scars from soring. However it is outstanding that someone is making a serious effort to identify and eradicate it. People who are commenting on "judgement calls" should perhaps discuss publicly what they think the standard should be. How much scarring is okay? I should think that experts in the examination process have established a standard as to how they are identifying scars. The more discussion and awareness raising the better. I am only saddened that there really is no repercussion for the exhibitors unless this type of inspection becomes standard at every showing event. Until then people will just show at non-examined events, or events with laxer judging standards.

Too bad there's no way to examine the horse's mind for scarring.

-- Edited by Marlene on Monday 29th of August 2011 11:28:16 AM

Barbara F · Grand Prix

Good points, guys.
Can you IMAGINE? An acceptable amount of scarring? How about ZERO scarring?

Nikki Salo · Grand Prix

Ditto what Jackie has said unfortunately cry I've learned in the past that with some horses the chemicals they put on the pasterns can cripple or even kill a horse (diesel fuel for example). A few years ago I believe the TWH world championship was canceled when trainers caught wind that they were cracking down hard on soring and pulled the majority of the horses out of the show. I imagine that a bit less cracking down has been going on because a lot of people are out of money when so many horses are pulled from a big event that they have to cancel the show.

One thing that I have learned from being in the horse industry for so long is that not all people in the industry are actually horse people (which I define as somebody who has the wellbeing of the horse in mind fore most in all cases), but rather "money people". hmm

Jackie Cochran · Advanced

Zero scarring? You'd probably have to make some exceptions for scarring from accidental rope burns, maybe a form from the attending vet describing what caused the scar, when, where, and how he treated it.

But upon further thought I think you are right Barbara. If scars from any source are allowed these horses will have lots of "accidental" rope burn scars.

Zero scarring is probably best.

Geoffrey Pannell · Well Schooled

I must be missing something in my education! confuse I have never heard of soring, what is it?

Jackie Cochran · Advanced

It is mostly done by the Tennessee Walking horse people, especially for the "Big Lick" horses who bring their front legs WAY up and reaching forward (sort like with the Spanish Walk foreleg movement, but the Big Lick is a lot faster and more exciting.)

The trainers put a caustic substance in the hollow of the pastern. It burns, the horses pick up their feet more. This is but one of many ways to get a horse to raise its legs/feet high.

Geoffrey Pannell · Well Schooled

Thanks Jackie, glad we don't have that sort of bollocks here!

Queenrider · Advanced

Horses suffer silently for showing purposes. There are many other examples beyond the soring of TWH. Western Pleasure horses have various things done to them to get that 6 foot canter stride. They also have the nerves to their tails cut so they can no longer swish their tails. Their tails just hang there. QH shown on the line have various things done to make their muscles bigger! Arabs are a breed that are supposed to have calm temperaments except when they are shown on the line. To make them "look better" they take them out back and and whip them. If Arab ears aren't pointy enough well then they get cosmetic surgery. TBs and STBs have to survive the meat grinder that is racing life. And so on...

Barbara F · Grand Prix

Queenrider wrote:
Horses suffer silently for showing purposes. There are many other examples beyond the soring of TWH. Western Pleasure horses have various things done to them to get that 6 foot canter stride. They also have the nerves to their tails cut so they can no longer swish their tails. Their tails just hang there. QH shown on the line have various things done to make their muscles bigger! Arabs are a breed that are supposed to have calm temperaments except when they are shown on the line. To make them "look better" they take them out back and and whip them. If Arab ears aren't pointy enough well then they get cosmetic surgery. TBs and STBs have to survive the meat grinder that is racing life. And so on...

Geez...I didn't know about the QH and Arabs. Is there any sort of movement for change from within those worlds, Queenrider? And the cosmetic surgery? What vet would DO that?? :(

-- Edited by Barbara F on Friday 16th of September 2011 09:15:23 AM

Geoffrey Pannell · Well Schooled

BLOODY HELL, do people really do these things just to win a ribbon? I don't even like clipping the horses tail!
Iv'e never heard of the nerves in the tail being cut, I don't understand why they don't learn to ride better to win a ribbon. There must be too much prize money on offer.

Nikki Salo · Grand Prix

It is pretty sad what some people will do for money cry

Barngirl · Foal

Unless the Saddlebred world has changed 180 degrees? They are not sored. A sore horse will not trot square, and they must trot whether they are 3, 5 gaited or Fine Harness.

I took care of them for many years and grew up around them.

One of the issues with the soring of the Big Lick horses is that not everything that is done is visible to the eye. I am talking here about the practice of taking carpet tacks, or nails or glass and putting it between or into the pads so that when the weight of the horse comes down, it causes those things to prick the frog and sole and makes the horse fling its feet up from the pain.

Also, when you see ripple marks on the cannon bone area, that is because the front legs have been wrapped in plastic wrap, with something like hot mustard, oil, diesel fuel or the like on there to make the tissue tender so that when the sweat rolls down the legs, it burns and the horses will fling their feet.

Many times you will see TWH's in a bucket stance, where all four feet will fit inside a water bucket because they are in so much discomfort.

I've also heard of WP trainers who will inject snake venom into joints to mask the signs of lameness, inject alcohol into the muscles of the tail to keep it from moving, tie heads down to concrete blocks to get a low head. The snake venom was actually used first on the TB circuit I believe I read.

If you look for the old time TWH's, they did not carry the obscenely heavy shoes and pads, and wore hinged boots to protect from overstriding. They also looked happy to be doing what they were doing.

And if you ever have the misfortune to watch a Big Lick class, the way those horses come down on their feet will, or it should, make you cringe.

Barbara F · Grand Prix

Oh my gosh, Barngirl! Where are the thousands of people who go to these shows and who see stuff going on behind the scenes - and who should be creating an uproar? I mean look at the dressage world where people are screaming about rollkur. Where are the videos from these shows? I'll bet they could generate a lot of backlash over these practices if even one video went viral!

Fizziologie · Yearling

This video would be near impossible to get. Anyone with the access to get the video, would not be allowed to film it.. And if they did and it was found they did it, they would lose whatever job they had, or would be kicked out of whatever barn they were in... And likely not allowed into anyone's barn in the industry. These trainers are competitive with one another, but the saddlebred community is very close knit and will protect their industry. As a collective group, they can give you a complete history on a horse, who owned it, what it has won and who bred it. They can do the same for most all of the riders, trainers, amateurs and juniors alike.. Which barns they have been in, which horses they have shown and when and what they have won. You can't spit in that industry without someone knowing what time you spat and where it landed. ( I grew up with Saddlebreds and the industry, there is a lot of greatness in their industry, as well as some hellacious practices.) They also cut tails and then harness them to shape them. Show horses stand in stalls 24-7, in tail harnesses and often with kick chains... And as a whole, the horses remain very sociable and positive. They have such big hearts and personalities :). These practices are considered acceptable as it is part of their culture. In their defense, many trainers "let down" their show horses for a month or two (usually around this time of year) where the horses' show shoes are removed and they are turned out to be horses. Though I hear of it less and less.

Barbara F · Grand Prix

Good Lord, I hadn't heard about the tails! Regardless of the culture and the risk, there must be some amateur out there who can take a video and stick it up on any number of social media sites anonymously. I would do it if I witnessed it.
We owe it to the horses.

Geoffrey Pannell · Well Schooled

and why would anyone want to be part of an industry that has , as part of it's culture, systematic torture of their horses!!

Geoffrey Pannell · Well Schooled

Hell, this weekend I told a girl off for seesawing on the reins to get her horse to go backwards. Don't know what i'd do if I saw someone doing this sort of stuff. Dam sure I wouldn't be worried about losing my job!

Jackie Cochran · Advanced

First I am not defending this practice in any way, shape, or form.
The "cut" tails have the two depressor tendons of the tail cut, one on each side, at the base of the tail toward the bottom. Contrary to what many people say the horse can still swish for flies, just not down between the hind legs. To get the tail standing upright the tail has to be put in a "tail set" which stays on the horse most of the time it is in the stall (ie, most of the time since these show horses don't get turned out.) Tennessee Walking horses also have their tails "cut" and wear the tail sets when in the stalls.
This practice has been going on in the USA for over a century. Putting a plug of ginger into the anus is a practice that is OLD, probably brought over to the USA from Europe. Both practices are use to get the horse to carry its tail high. This is a pity since I have seen pictures of OLD ASB's with an uncut tail that had a graceful tail carriage.
This, of course, was to copy the high tail carriage of the Arab breed, but taken to EXTREMES.
When I got back to the USA in 1963 there was--hunt seat, "balanced" seat, Western (mostly Texan, some Californio), saddle seat--ASB, saddle seat--TWH, saddle seat--Arab and Morgan, plus remnants of the old English hunt seat and a little dressage.
I looked at them all and the modern hunt seat seemed the most humane to me, with the Forward Seat &/or the US Cavalry Fort Riley seat the most humane versions of the hunt seat, which is why I ride Forward Seat.
The USA was settled by Englishmen in the early 1600's. The saddle seat is descended from the seats used by the English for gaited riding. Luckily these easy gaited horses came over with the settlers , otherwise the European easy-gaited riding horse would have gone extinct except on the margins of Europe (esp, Iceland). The USA got the northern European easy gaited horses, Central and South America got the easy gaited Iberian horses. The easy gaits are natural, but the high stepping easy gaits are not natural and the trainers feel like they have to put the horses through hell to make them suitable winning show horses.
And for many Americans winning is everything. Since they can't win with good horsemanship they use bad horsemanship. It does not matter to them so long they win.
Sad but true.

Barrelracer106 · Yearling

I don't remember who said it, but they do check on the park horses in the Morgan and Arab circuits. The judges and vets go around before every class and see. I hadn't heard about the injecting the tails, but have about cutting their tendons. Sick. I ride western pleasure Morgan circuit, and no one that I've seen do this, but they most likely do it in the middle of the night when I'm riding. you do see the wonky tails too though. The thing is with the lameness in the Morgan WP world is that they have a fatigued lope, that it doesn't show, and the trot can be easily masked. If it shows at the walk, I see some people pull out. Not all though. I know from personal experience that if they out this into Morgans, my mare couldn't show,she has scars on her legs from getting caught in fences, granted they look very natural and blend very well, I think this is horrible....

Barbara F · Grand Prix

Geoffrey Pannell wrote:
Hell, this weekend I told a girl off for seesawing on the reins to get her horse to go backwards. Don't know what i'd do if I saw someone doing this sort of stuff. Dam sure I wouldn't be worried about losing my job!

Good for you, Geoffrey. People need to be called out by the trainers if they are going to abuse their horses that way. I sometimes wonder what people think is on the other end of the reins. They seem to forget there is an actual mouth there. Jeesh!