A biomechanical seat?

spirithorse · Advanced

A biomechanical seat?

barnfrog · Advanced

This should be part of every person's daily lessons imho, explainations from the instructor.

There are entire books written on the effects of the rider('s seat) upon the horse('s reactions). One of the best is by doctors (father/son who are upper level riders complete with xrays (Schusdziarra Anatomy of Riding)), and severl others. They not only show the traditional alignment (ear/shoulder/hip/back of heel and proper upper arm placement), but coordinate it with the COG of the horse as well. But there are several more:

And if the rider is not balanced, or cannot time aids as a result, the horse will not get the same message the same way, which makes it more difficult for the horse.

Figarocubed · Advanced

Correct seat and execution, as Barnfrog states, HAVE been extensively discussed and explained in books and magazines. Reinvention of the wheel is not necessary.

Your example rider would land on her derriere if her horse were magically swept out from under her. That is not a balanced position by anyone else's estimation.

Jackie Cochran · Advanced

While Allan's seat may not look like the modern competition dressage seat it has great similarities to certain seats still in used today--Western and in Saddle Seat. While Western saddles may keep people on the back of their horses better than dressage saddles do, the Saddle Seat Lane Fox saddles have NOTHING but stirrups to help keep the rider on. Allan's seat also has great resemblence to the seat described in Louis Taylor's book "Ride American", again to be used in the old English type saddles, again with nothing to keep the rider on but the stirrups.

Allan is not reinventing the wheel, he is describing the seat that probably most of the riders in Europe have used since riding started.

The modern dressage seat, using the vertical stirrup leather, greatly resembles the Duke of Newcastle's fork seat (the D. of N.'s description). Pluvinel and Gueriniere's seats would result in the rider falling on his butt if the horse disappeared from under him, unless the rider was riding forward in a fork seat. As would all the riders shown in the Greek friezes from the Parthenon, the seat ridden by Xenophon. With all these great masters of collected riding, if the horse disappeared from under them they would fall on their butts. This did not prevent them from riding collected horses, or from staying on their horses, or keep them from being considered masters of riding and dressage.

As far as I can determine having your feet directly under your seat got widespread in the 1800's in Europe in the cavalry. Not surprising since cavalry horses are more likely to disappear from under the rider once accurate guns became the standard weapons.

Marlene · Advanced

I'm looking at the comparative seats of the person on a chair. First sitting on a static chair isn't much of a comparison to sitting on a trotting horse,(especially my Arab who executes girations, but of course not a dressage horse). And as I have discovered the hard way, the open angle of the hips on a horse is not much like on a chair. But anyway for the sake of discussion, the third seated woman is supposedly balanced, but has her feet unevenly placed, one is actually under her hip shoulder line, a natural inclination, if she had both out in front (as our "chair seat" rider does), she would feel her pelvis being wrenched one way or the other. So again, not much use as a comparison. Also her weight is pitched forward, head down, and if she had reins would be leaning on them heavily, so again, not much help for a riding comparison.

Looking at the photo of the "neutral" rider , she looks decidely behind the action to me, and a teeny bit hunched. I don't think this is balanced, but I often end up in this position to ease the pain my hips (which of course it doesn't), or when I'm getting tired riding. If she were riding my horse, she would not survive his little spooks and dodges.

The dressage rider looks the most correct to me, and I have discovered that with the correct upper body posture, and pelvic strength, the open hip position does not always have to be painful. Still it is difficult (for my stiff body) to acheive, that doesn't make it any less correct. In that position I am usually well prepared to handle mini-spooks on my"Teflon Don".

I have not figured out the answer for myself yet, all I know is I had very little problem with position when I was a teenager and didn't use a saddle. Of course these days are gone, so I have to try to make up for deficiencies with exercises.

spirithorse · Advanced

Figarocubed wrote: Your example rider would land on her derriere if her horse were magically swept out from under her. That is not a balanced position by anyone else's estimation.

Figarocubed:

FYI, a well known trainer since passed on named Jimmy Williams used to cut cattle in a flat exercise saddle. I have ridden for years in a dressage type saddle and have had a 'few' horses jump out from underneath me......guess what....I stayed in the saddle. I do know for a fact the the length of leg you show in your image is helpful to stay in the saddle but it is not the perfect seat for the horse. That is why what I wrote references the correct biomechanical seat and not what we perceive as correct.

Have a great day.

Jackie,

Great explanation.

Figarocubed · Advanced

I believe it's your perception that's incorrect, Reverend. I have also ridden in an English saddle while working cattle -- cutting, galloping after bunch quitters, and somehow managed to stay on top of my horse, so that's no big deal to me. Any good cowboy should be capable of that. You are not exceptional.

But a balanced seat -- whether it's forward seat, dressage, or Western, demands that the rider be aligned & balanced above his feet. ideally, even when crouched over a jump. I said nothing about a horse ducking out from under a rider, but a horse that is simply "disappeared" from under the rider. Again, a well balanced rider should be able to land on his feet should this "magical" disappearance take place. Not on his butt, not on his face, but on his feet.

Once again, you are trying to create a problem where none exists, and come up with a solution where none is needed.

Since I rehabbed the horse in my image from a back-atrophied busted jumper IN that seat, I doubt he'd agree that my seat is detrimental to him. Not perfect by anyone's estimation, but effective for the most part. I see no reason to stick my feet out in front of me unless I'm hurtling down a hill, riding a buck or landing over a drop jump. Such a posture stiffens the rider's lower leg, the thigh, the seat and renders it unable to deliver a subtle aid. It's a bracing leg, where is should be relaxed and draped.

barnfrog · Advanced

I watched and rode with JW a lot (at Flintridge), and assurdedly did not ride in a chair seat. And he would have come apart on student who did (and he taught all the seats: h/j/w). A neutral seat is seat is easly felt by the rider by merely hooking their thumbs over their hips (thumb behind the pelvis and four fingers in front). Posteriorly tilted is felt (too rounded), Anteriorly tilted (hollowed back), and then the rider finds neutral. When the stirrups are too long the riders hollow the back with anterior tilt, too short or legs out in front and it is posteriorly tilted.

Imho the prob with the first pix (although I cannot follow which abdc is being discuss in the article) is that the stirrups are not vertical under the rider, toes are slightly out, and the upper arms seem not to be either. Better than many riders? Sure. A seat of peeps like Waetjen? No.

spirithorse · Advanced

Never said JW rode in a chair seat!

The correct biomechanical seat is NOT a chair seat either!

As for pelvic tilt, the diagram and the images show the NEUTRAL pelvic!

Figarocubed · Advanced

The correct seat is indeed not a chair seat. However, your demo rider's photo shows a chair seat. Not an extreme one, but "chairy" nonetheless. A fork seat is also incorrect. Neither extreme allows for correct aiding or following of the horse's motion.

Riding is not a static activity. The pelvis rocks and tilts back and forth, depending on the rider's intention or in response to the horse's movement. I agree with Marlene -- the diagrams of the woman sitting on the tilting chair have little to do with riding.

You're seeking attention through fallacious claims. Biomechanics of the rider have been explored and explained by better-qualified anatomists, instructors and horsemen. The book mentioned by Barnfrog abive is excellent. Sally Swift and Mary Wanless come to mind. There are reasons most of us sit the way we do -- logical ones.

If you choose to have your students sit in chair seats you're welcome to do so. I think you posit these things simply to provoke an argument.

spirithorse · Advanced

Figarocubed

Cease responding to anything I post. You are simply an antagonistic individual.

barnfrog · Advanced

The seat of the rider shown is neutral, but the thigh is not quite stretched/low enough (look at the closeness to the front of the saddle) to allow the entire leg to be more under the rider. It is not a chair seat, but neither is it optimal.

Imho the pelvis does not rock, it stays aligned and neutral unless/until the rider uses a hh/etc.

We all have the right to interact with what is posted and our take on it. But certain equitational concepts are there because they work and have been proven over time.

I would refer you to http://www.artisticdressage.com/waetjen-photos.html for some nice equitational pictures (and ALL his students looked like him...here and in Germany) We can talk about this as a counter point which is often more chair seat at times: http://www.artisticdressage.com/burkner-photos.html (who one medals)....but it is more in p&p.

-- Edited by barnfrog on Sunday 4th of September 2011 12:57:46 PM

spirithorse · Advanced

"The seat of the rider shown is neutral, but the thigh is not quite stretched/low enough (look at the closeness to the front of the saddle) to allow the entire leg to be more under the rider. It is not a chair seat, but neither is it optimal"

Barnfrog:

You are not an atagonist.......you write politely...........!!!

You cannot have a neutral pelvic if the thigh is stretched downward. So you must decide which is more important, the neutral pelvic or the stretched thigh?

"But certain equitational concepts are there because they work and have been proven over time."

What proof? Simply tradition. What was taken for granted 75 years ago can be proven incorrect if one would choose to think outside the box of tradition.

If you choose the stretched thigh then you alter the seat and the aids are changed.

I have changed many riders positions simply by letting them 'feel' the changes in the contact.....

Biomechanical means just that and with to objects interacting together, the biomechanics of each object must be conducive with the other.

That is why I wrote the article, simply because of the failure of the traditional seat to be the correct biomechanical seat for BOTH horse and rider.

barnfrog · Advanced

Without the rider 'feathering into the heel' there is no adhesion to the saddle. It is only when the thigh is hanging that the pelvis is neutral. Pushing into the heel and fixing the leg will cause anterior tilting, but that is not the same as all joints being flexible (hip/knee/thigh). The two things (neutral pelvis and feathering leg CAN/should coexist in the best world. What cannot exist is a PINCHING thigh because that raises the rider off the saddle. Stretching from the hip to the heel allows for adhesion (like a rubberband to a glass laid on itself).

When one gets too close to a sustained chair seat they easily have a steadily posteriorly tilted pelvis. A step of posterior tilting is generally a hh, a steadily postiorly titled pelvis is driving and one in which the rider is left behind the motion as well.

What proves these facts? Watching the best riders, the ease with which they stay with horses (on the flat/over fences/uphill/downhill) and that ALL seats (used to) use this alignment and the horses were easier trained.

Obviously all riding is taught by feel: feel neutral pelvis/feel anterior/feel postior over BALANCE (cog) of the horse.

These things have been written about by doctors who are also top riders, by massage experts, by biomechanical experts who are also top riders. They are documented with xrays also. For me, its 50 years of intense study/reading/and by riding and teaching equitation. Horse go better with a centered/balanced/well seated rider for sure.

Figarocubed · Advanced

Well stated, Barnfrog.

Mr. Buck, you place a lot of emphasis on "freedom of speech" here and elsewhere. Apparently it is ONLY for you! ;)

aussieannie · Foal

of course a video would show the true nature and strength of the rider. A picture is only a representation of a split second in time. The next step would show the rider in a different position mostly likely with the horse. this is a statue picture not a dynamic one.

It looks good to me

aussieannie · Foal

the best chair to train the rider is a ball try it before you all have a say. if you cant balnce on a ball you cant ballnce on a horse.

barnfrog · Advanced

A fit ball is very educational. It teaches the rider how to find a neutral pelvis, posterior and anterior tilting. AND it is great for teaching the aids for half pass as well (moving the ball diagonally as well. I use them at camps/clinics.

Figarocubed · Advanced

Yup. I use my fitball every day. I can balance on it, too. Whoopee!

Marlene · Advanced

There is no substitute for a video example, especially if you can freeze a sequence of frames to really examine the movement. I was interested in the example of the video posted on BM recently "The beauty of the Gauchera". What a great duo, beautiful "dance", and great seat. You can see a whole range of rider positions, but always balanced, always quiet. Of course the horse is balanced as well. But at any rate you see some moments where perhaps the riders feet are not exactly in line with hips and shoulders, at other times they are . It depends on the direction of all kinds of forces in three dimensions, and in time. To come up with one simple picture and present it as the "best" position is just not going to work for two dynamic, flexible bodies in motion. I think you would just about need a computer to analyze the "best" position at any given moment. I actually don't think people can do this consciously anyway. The horse is unconsciously perfectly executing every move, every accomodation to the rider's subtle direction, the rider is doing the same. Think of all the hundreds of muscles, and adjustments that are being made every moment. This is biomechanics to me.

Queenrider · Advanced

I would disagree with the article. The pictures are incorrect as well. Mary Wanless has written extensively as has Eckart Meyners on biomechanics and how they affext the horse!

spirithorse · Advanced

Queenrider

You can disagree all you want but the evidence arises in the performance changes of the horse. I cannot wait until I am able to acquire the equipment I need to do the scientific evidentiary research to validate or invalidate my claims and others claims.

Figarocubed · Advanced

Can you not present a video demonstrating the "correct" (in your estimation) seat and then the "incorrect" (in your estimation) seat, clearly showing the differences?

It's easy to see, for instance, when a rider posts heavily and out of synch with the horse. The horse gets irritated and unhappy after a few minutes of such riding. The effects of poor riding and better riding should be easy to discern.

Film evidence might even aid your fund-raising efforts.

spirithorse · Advanced

We are working on a video at this time.

Figarocubed · Advanced

Very good!

barnfrog · Advanced

If you go to Google Scholar there are so many articles/pix on this issue. It is being studied by high end PhD people in depth, and people who are very traditional in the dressage riding. And it would be more under applied physiology than it would under biomechanics.

-- Edited by barnfrog on Thursday 8th of September 2011 03:40:52 PM