Tantrums?

Fizziologie · Yearling

Tantrums?

Figarocubed · Advanced

Wow.

You're clipping and turning out with others a mare you do not yet own? I hope you have insurance -- or the seller does. Of course I don't have ALL the background, but you're trying the horse out before purchase, not taking it in for "training".

Give the poor thing a chance. She's in a strange situation. It seems to me you're taking liberties with someone else's horse. If I were the seller, I'd be upset. I don't clip the long hairs around my horse's noses and eyes, for instance. I'd be furious if someone did that to one of my horses if it were on trial. After the paperwork is signed and the deal is done -- shave 'em bald if you like, but not while I own them.

Not all horses cross-tie, but they straight tie just fine. What did the seller tell you about the mare's experience with clipping? Seller's evidently told you this mare's a "brute" in a herd -- why would you risk the health and welfare of the other mares -- not to mention the mare that is not yet yours?

My opinion: you're moving much too fast with an animal that's not yet yours to treat as you wish. Slow. Down. You can't go wrong taking your time.

Barbara F · Grand Prix

You don't mention your level of experience or what you would like to do with the horse. I assume dressage?

Can you give us a bit of background about that?

The mare sounds like a project for an experienced rider who can give her lots of confidence, while setting and sticking to ground rules.

Queenrider · Advanced

Don't buy her. Send her back. You just found out the reason she is for sale.

Jackie Cochran · Advanced

I agree with Queenrider. A horse that goes ballistic without warning is DANGEROUS to you and anyone else around her.
If you decide to keep her (why?) be prepared to spend money on chiropractors etc.. I get the feeling that either something is causing her pain (now or in the past) or there might be a mis-wire in her brain.
Do you want to spend every minute around your horse worried that something you do may trigger a tantrum? Then, when you find the triggers, spend the rest of your time around her working around her triggers instead of getting down to real training?

Barbara F · Grand Prix

Thinking about it a bit, I agree with Queenrider. She hit the nail on the head.

Don't buy trouble.

barnfrog · Advanced

imho horses don't have 'tantrums'. And why would anyone clip a horse('s face) while the horse is tied??? let alone around the eyes????? (Interestingly in europe clipping the nose/etc is not allowed). Imho mares are sometimes more reactive, but it is fairly easy to see coming. The question is what causes it. I would never tie a horse to a post to train it, and anytime i cross tie it is with the back closed and only a front opening. But I try to alway plan ahead.

Marlene · Advanced

This sounds like it would be a project horse, depending on if that's what you wanted. It would be interesting to see if she behaved the same when her owner does these same things on her more familiar territory. If not, she might adjust once she settles in. If she does, she might need a lot of work to get to square one. Either way, it's a gamble isn't it?

barnfrog · Advanced

why does it sound like a project horse? What about her rideability and trainability? And being slowly progressive?

Marlene · Advanced

I agree barnfrog, this was asking a lot of a horse just suddenly introduced to a new environment, and was an unfair assessment of the horse's true temperament. I meant that after the OP observed how the horse behaved on their own turf, with their own handler, as to how they normally behave, to consider that as a starting point. If the horse is not normally having tantrums, the original owner should be able to demonstrate, this is what the horse normally does. Then when you take her to a new environment you can't suddenly expect the horse to behave as if they were home, but give them time to settle, and as you say, proceed progressively. It is never a good idea to rush, especially in a new environment, new owner, new stablemates. I like to change one thing at a time, then I know just where I went too far (I have a "sensitive" arab,but maybe other breeds are like that too).
. My guy was jumpy, girthy, balky, spooky, barnsour, buddy sour, cold backed, when I got him (but *he wasn't apparently when I saw him in his old home*), and importantly, I wasn't the most confident handler in the face of all this, but we just took lots of time to work through everything till he trusted me. It took a lot longer than I thought it would, and he's much much improved. If you took him now and translplanted him with new place, new handler, new barnmates, he'd probably revert to all his bad habits. A smarter handler probably would iron this all out faster than I did. The fact that the OP is asking this question or did what they did indicates maybe they are not super experienced and may have some work to do to get the horse to where they want.

dbliron · Advanced

WOW! This is why I never allow horses out on trial. If she wasn't messed up before she is now, poor mare.

While I do think that some horses indulge in tantrums sometimes, this just sounds like too much, too fast, with little knowledge and less forethought.

Figarocubed · Advanced

Whew! I was afraid I was too harsh to the OP. Where has Fizzio gone?

Fizziologie · Yearling

Congratulations members, you showed your true colors. I was looking for someone who may have dealt with the same issues in the past with their warmblood, to hear their experiences. Instead, I got the typical horse owner 'urinating contest'; people trying to prove that what they "know" is best. Which is actually a warning sign to me that the collective are not open to anything outside of their limited experience and comfort zones - nor did I see support or encouragement for a fellow horse person. No one encouraged me to have her vetted or evaluated by my trainer - which I have done, and she loves her.

It is startling the depth of the manure on this thread from the assumptions made in regards to the agreement between myself and the owner, my experience level, what I trimmed on the horse (which has nothing to do with the thread), and my opinion of my own abilities... the list goes on. At least a couple restrained themselves from vicious criticism and provided their opinion based on the information given, only one asked a question. The others saw an opportunity to "show what they know" (or what they don't) and took it. It was like watching the established kids beat the new kid in school, in an effort to prove their superiority and remind themselves that they are important.

I expected some people to potentially judge and be nasty in an open forum, but because I am not one to make assumptions and then judge that assumption of another equestrian's handling, schooling, preventative methods, etc the behavior continues to shock me.

Lastly, I didn't come here to prove anything, and so I will not go into detail to defend my methodology or experience. With this group, it would be fuel to a blazing fire anyway. Best of luck to everyone in their equine endeavors.

Jackie Cochran · Advanced

I can't tell you about Warmbloods. The only Warmblood I have ever ridden hasn't done temper tantrums.

My stable got an Arabian gelding alsmost 2 months ago who has had 2-4 temper tantrums. I was one of the first to take a lesson on him. I told my teacher that he was not pushing with his hind leg through to his back. After the first tantrum (in a stall, she pushed him back) she decided doing a chiropractor, the chiropractor found a dislocated rib. After the first adjustment there was another tantrum when he was girthed. The horse has since had another adjustment, and no more temper tantrums. Of course his saddle was changed to one that fit him, and experimentation found the girth that he is happy with. This horse is going through a major change in life, from being a recently semi-retired trail horse to being a lesson/show horse. He seems to be adjusting OK, in two shows he has had 2 championships (junior hunter under saddle) including the state fair.

I was not trying to dis you. However I was worried about your safety. A lot of stories we get here like yours often turn out to be the result of inexperience and rushing. I am afraid that we do tend to guess alot, often because we are not told enough about the situation. It often takes a few back and forths before we get down to the real problem. If you had told us that you had a lot of experience you may have gotten different advice, though I still would have suggested a chiropractor or osteopath. I suspect that this horse may be in pain, the type of pain that flares up with any wrong move, but since I don't know the horse all I can do is guess. I do know that fixing pain can result in a much more placid horse, I've seen it many times, though this Arab gelding is the first tantrum experience I've had in over 40 years of riding. Pain free he is one of the best horses around.

Figarocubed · Advanced

OP, this is the most "hearts and flowers" BB I frequent. People here are encouraged to be nicey-nice. You showed YOUR true colors coming here, with the intent to bait people.

I counted SEVERAL people here who asked questions. You did not come back to offer further explanation or background, so take a bit of the blame if you (evidently, intentionally) left out information. What did you mean to accomplish by leaving out key information?

The scenario you described in your first post sounded dangerous and fraught with poor judgement. So sorry that's not what you wanted to hear, but that's what it appeared to be.

Best of luck with the horse. Obviously you believe you've got the experience to deal with her, but didn't get the support you wanted. I believe the feedback you got here was spot-on and delivered with the best of intentions.

Fizziologie · Yearling

Jackie, thank you for your honesty and helpfulness. I can understand the concern for someone leaving a post like the one I left, it is a dangerous situation - horses are inherently unpredictable. However, I get the impression that she may improve.. and I have full permission to work with her on this. I appreciate the honesty in yours and a few other posts - that is more important to me that "what I want to hear". Most of the posters gave opinions or advice based on the information provided and showed normal restraint to not publicly condemn or judge - despite what they may or may not have been thinking. There are kind ways of telling someone that you believe they are trying to do something beyond their paygrade, that a horse isn't a good fit, that perhaps they need more guidance, etc. without burning them at the stake. And those who show their humanity when they didn't need to - in an anonymous fashion - it does make more of an impact. More bees with honey, right?

Figaro, I originally was not going to return to this thread, but I deserve to respond to your false accusations. I did not come here seeking "hearts and flowers", nor am I seeking "fire and brimstone". You are laden with assumptions, for which you need to take responsibility. I never came here to 'bait' anyone. I was seeking people who may have dealt with a similar situation. There was no alterior motive to "leaving out key information", I thought I gave a pretty comprehensive account of the interactions without overburdening the post. This mare's disrespect to stand tied is dangerous, I have not been blind to believe it is normal. "Fraught with poor judgement" - I could say the same for your posts. But based on your assumptions of me and my "liberties" with the horse, I can see where you might think that... but your assumptions are not reality. My apologies that I am not a more talented writer to present it more clearly - I gave my best effort. And based on your tone, you obviously don't think I have the experience to deal with the mare.. you have no idea, so I can't hold that against you.. or dbliron or barnfrog for that matter. Intentions are hard to reveal, and so I always err on the side of 'good intentions' until someone becomes nasty and derogatory and proves otherwise.. so much for "nicey-nice". You can have the last word, I am sure you may have more of them, for me the false accusations and blatent assumptions were just simply too much.

Best of luck.

-- Edited by Fizziologie on Friday 21st of October 2011 10:16:54 PM

-- Edited by Fizziologie on Friday 21st of October 2011 10:21:14 PM

Figarocubed · Advanced

No, you may keep the last word. I will give you a wide berth.

Barbara F · Grand Prix

I've come back here to comment after re-reading the original post and follow-up replies.

I have a few comments I'd like to add:

1. I should have read the original post much more closely. The horse wasn't throwing a tantrum over the clippers, she was panicking out of fear. Shame on me for not reading that carefully enough to tell you. My own horse, who is an ANGEL, is terrified of clippers. While he wouldn't sit down in the cross-ties, he would surely panic if he were in a new environment and someone tied him up and took the clippers to his face.

I can't speak about the other behaviour, but the extreme reaction with the clippers was FEAR. Poor thing. I'm sorry if you don't like this answer, but, in the case of the clippers, you misinterpreted the mare's reaction. PLEASE re-think her behaviour as possibly resulting from fear, rather than obstinance. If you substitute the word "panic" for "tantrum" I think you'll be closer to understanding the mare.

2. Tying a frightened horse to a post as punishment is not only cruel, but it makes no sense, as the horse doesn't relate being tied to anything it's done. If you really want to correct behaviour, you have to first figure out what's causing it, then respond immediately with a calm, clear correction or reassurance, depending on why the horse is doing something.

3. If you have brought the horse home to try and you are already seeing problems - either with the horse, or with the horse as a fit for you, she is not for you. I say this not only for you, but for the welfare of the horse. This isn't meant to be mean, but, please be open-minded about the behaviour of any horse you end up with, as it is easy to mis-interpret. Asking yourself WHY a horse is behaving a certain way is always the best starting point, and it's something every good horseperson should do.

4. I read the replies to your original post and no one was nasty to you at all. The answers were forthright and direct and, actually, there were some good ideas in there that anyone could learn from. No one here is trying to show anyone else how much they know. We all know what we know and try to put our ideas forward. This forum is actually filled with very well-informed, well-read and experienced horse people. Of course we don't all agree on everything, and that's a GOOD thing because we can all learn from debate and frank discussion.

Maybe you felt attacked because this was your first post and you got a different response than you anticipated, but still the responses could be of great help to you - and they certainly were not posturing or personal attacks.

I hope you take this very long-winded response as it is meant - to be of help.

-- Edited by Barbara F on Saturday 22nd of October 2011 11:12:35 AM

Fizziologie · Yearling

Thank you Barbara for your candidness.

I have observed the mare sitting down in the ties with no stimulation what-so-ever, just because she decided she was 'done'. The reaction to the clippers was initially of fear, but she continued on after the fear stressor had been removed.

She also was not tied back to the post as a means of punishment or juvenile retaliation. I tied her back up because we were going to end the session quietly and on my terms. She 'panicked' and dismissed herself from the session. I brought her back calmly and with the expectation that she stand quietly, with no stimulation for the 20 minutes it would take me to finish stalls and prepare their feed. Just as if we had been riding and she had spooked or bucked. I checked her over, and calmly continued with something that should have been simple and innocuous - like standing tied. Ending it when I chose to end it and on my quiet terms.

This is the only problem that I have encountered with her. Fear of clippers is not a problem in my eyes, just needs training. Halter pulling on the other hand, is a problem. If it can not be improved, taking her anywhere would be a challenge. I think she is worth trying to improve, she has been fantastic in every other way. I assure you the 'welfare' of the horse is fine. She is not being neglected, beaten, or treated cruelly in any way, shape or form.

Your statement about no one being nasty is almost funny. But there was some genuinely good feedback which I pointed out before.

porte101 · Yearling

Have you ever heard of Monty Roberts?? I had a gelding who could not stand still no matter what I did and I went desperately searching, it was before I knew about this, and found him. Go on Youtube and look him up, he does a thing called a join-up and it helps you "talk" to the horse in its own language, it dramatically helped my horse. It makes your horse have more trust in you and it really got through to my old gelding. I got my new Quarab(quarter horse/arab) and he had trust issues so i went right to work building a round pen and getting him in it. And we have a great relationship.

I don't agree with the arguing on here, it should be about helping the horse and obtaining information about how someone else would do that to get ideas.

Also, I think you have plenty enough experience to handle her. I would have dont the same thing(tied her til i was done an she was what I wanted her to be).

I agree with your methods.

-- Edited by porte101 on Saturday 22nd of October 2011 05:21:42 PM

Jackie Cochran · Advanced

I can sympathize with the not standing tied, my first horse learned he could break the halter when a vet smelling of tube worming medication passed by him one day. I never 'cured' him, we just came to an agreement that I would not ask him to stand tied in the hot sun and flies, and if I had to leave him in the sun for a while I just dropped the lead line on the ground. This would not help you though if you want to go anywhere.

I read of a technique in one of Tom Roberts books that I never tried. He had a horse that would not tie no matter what. He cured it by tying the horse up with light STRING, the horse would go back, break the string, the trainer would tied the horse again with another length of string. After an hour or two of this the horse decided being tied up was no big deal and Tom Roberts said he never had any problem with the horse standing tied again even with a regular lead rope. The beauty of this method is that the horse was not hurting himself and calmed down rapidly between the tyings. All this takes is patience, and willingness to repeat as needed, both with the initial training and once the message gets through if you need reminders.

I do not know if this method would work with cross-ties, but maybe you could try it once you got the tying up worked out, using a piece of string for each side.

This may take a few balls of string.

Once your horse realizes she can escape if needed she may stop freaking out. Then she can realize that you never hurt her when tied up. Of course if you ever do hurt her tied up then you will be back to step one, for instance don't give your horse shots when she is tied up, just hold her lead line.

Since your mare is 1/2 Arab you can also try explaining things to her in words as you work with the string. Arabs and part Arabs often understand English a lot more than people realize. Just tell her out loud each step before you do it, and when she breaks the string just tell her you are going to tie her up again, and repeat. Don't scold, just a calm, steady voice, and basically act like this is really no big deal. I have found that if I speak and explain enough that sometimes I can get the horse to cooperate with something completely new, sometimes even before I give the aids (those horses were SMART.)

Good luck, may your mare listen to you, understand you, and finally decide that you are worth working with. PLEASE be careful and don't get hurt.

Fizziologie · Yearling

Thanks for the anecdote from Tom Roberts, that sort of thinking is what I was looking for. I just want her over reactions to stop working for her. I know that there are many ways to do so, and some work better with certain personality types than others... Thank you again Jackie - I so appreciate you taking the time to type and post your responses. This mare is my 6th half Arab, and I love the cross on all different breeds. I prefer the crosses over the fulls any day of the week (I have had several wonderful full Arabs as well, just a personal preference). Long ago, we used to start the youngsters using voice commands that would remain consistent for them through their training from lead, to lunge, to the lines to backing... it made the whole training process less stressful and ultimately more successful. And while I haven't heard of anyone starting horses with voice commands anymore, I agree completely that verbal cues along with the proper use of vocal tones to correct and/or soothe horses is very effective - at least in my limited experience... Also, thank you Porte for your input and suggestions on Monty Roberts. I will certainly consider it when handling the mare. The only drawback is that I typically work a horse on a lunge or in the lines when on a circle... But I am not closed to some of the "natural horsemanship" methods. Thanks for the feedback. As an update, the mare is doing great. A little unfocused under saddle right now, but she comes back when asked. I've only been on a couple of times, and haven't asked much of her, just sticking to basics until we are legged up and used to each other. She has the warmblood uphill movement with that great Arab suspension... I am excited to see how she blooms. Thanks all