Interesting Article Describing the Half Halt

Barbara F · Grand Prix

Interesting Article Describing the Half Halt

Jackie Cochran · Advanced

I think that Jean Luc was saying that the technical theory operant today in dressage is wrong, the whole idea that the rider can shift the weight to the hindquarter.

I have been praised by my riding teacher for my half-halts when all I was doing was straightening up a bit and just stiffening my fingers for a split second when the horse's head comes up. If necessary I repeat. The horse's jaw and mouth stay responsive.

This is nowhere like the half-halt I've read about in dressage or Forward Seat books. Whenever I try to do that the horse stiffens its jaw and becomes more or less resistant and/or unhappy with me.

I think it comes down to good timing, and often the correct time is when the horse starts accelerating at all. By the third stride it may be too late for a subtle half-halt to immediately have the desired affect. At least that is how it works for me.

barnfrog · Advanced

There are two parts about a hh: one is how the rider physically creates their part of it, and second what a hh should create as a reaction. Instructors must talk about how the horse learns to react to specific actions rider's body, when those reactions begin (in hand/driven), and then what the progression of training is.

The practice of a arret/demi arret (hand w/o seat), or a seat/leg meeting hand produces a different effect than all aids together (which does not help to fold of the hind legs but stiffens them and puts the horse onto forelegs). And how does the seat 'work' (neutrality/posterior tilting/etc), and how do the legs support are all things which much be explained

In that vid imho the hh does not work correctly. The horse shortens its posture and straightens the hind legs, rather than flexing the joints more effectively (which is the action a hh produces).

For sure it is all TIMING (of aids to the gait of the horse) and BALANCE (of horse and rider).

There are people who are born with feel and it is easier developed in youth (when most people learned to ride). But it can be developed as well (PK didnt start riding until 20!!!). And nuance for sure is developed partly by logical progrssion (you all know the phases of unconcious incompetence/concious imcompetence/concious competence/unconscious competence).

-- Edited by barnfrog on Wednesday 19th of October 2011 09:38:59 AM

spirithorse · Advanced

Ah, yes the ellusive half halt.

I have discovered I can create half halt using alternating thigh pressue, without the hands. And thus to stop I squeeze both thighs at the same time. Yes it really works....my clients are amazed.

barnfrog · Advanced

If one squeezes with the thighs the rider is not less stable imho because it lifts the seatbones. What does this type of hh do?

Stilling the seat should be enough for a down transition and allows more relaxation in th rider.

What intention is the alternating thigh to create? What effect upon the horse/movement?

Of course we must decide what we are creating as well. There are lateral hh/diagonal hh and bilateral ones (demi arret/arrets too). All have different intentions of reactions of the horse and/or its balance.

And how would this be done in hand as JLC did? Does anyone think his hh 'worked'?

-- Edited by barnfrog on Wednesday 19th of October 2011 06:59:06 PM

helyn · Yearling

Half halt is trying to create a phenomenon which does not exist. This is not the way the horse controls balance. There is no right way to do a half halt. This is what JLC article explains.

helyn · Yearling

Also the video is not showing half halt... This brief video sequence which is an abstract of the video we presented at Immersion 3, illustrates the braking and pushing phases of the hind and front legs. The horse's polo wraps are painted in red during the braking phase (deceleration) and in green during the pushing phase. For clarity the video is preented here frame by frame.

-- Edited by helyn on Friday 21st of October 2011 02:17:24 PM

spirithorse · Advanced

In squeezing the thighs one does not really change the influence of the seat...if done correctly.

As Helyn points out hh is actually an imaginary phenomenon that really does not occur. If Helyn and JL used the same filming process on a horse I was riding doing hh, there would be no visable difference.

We are using a mis-construed term.

When I do the hh in reality I am checking the concurrent action of the horse because the horse is losing the action asked for. In other words, at trot if the horse begins to increase the rate of travel I hh to bring the horse back to the original gait. The alternating thighs let the horse know he/she is being disobediant and allows the horse the opportunity to return the original gait.

I never use hh as a prepatory aid prior to a change in gait etc............

helyn · Yearling

It is interesting that as soon as actual knowledge of the equine physiology questions their beliefs, the waspish ghosts of theological thinking pull up the umbrellas. They do not want to improve their equitation with new knowledge, they want to fit new knowledge to their beliefs. There are several traditional umbrellas. The most common is the classic authors umbrella. This cannot be true because this author did not write about it in a book that was written hundred or more years ago. The second most common is the feeling umbrella. I do not need to know how the horse’s body works; I do it by feel. The third most frequent is the my horse umbrella. My horse responds well to my cue. There is also the my trainer umbrella, My trainer succeed doing just that, but this one belongs to the same family that the my horse umbrella. There are undoubtedly great ideas in the wisdom of centuries but knowledge evolves and theories elaborated hundred or more years ago may no longer fit actual knowledge of the equine physiology.

Feeling is how the rider perceives the horse but, without having in mind a sound understanding of the way the horse physique effectively function, feeling is likely leading to serious misconceptions. Horses are effectively capable to compensate for many riding and training flaws, but the price they have to pay is lameness.

The horse achieves balance control increasing the decelerating effect of the hind legs and enhancing the conversion through the thoracolumbar spine of the thrust generated by the hind legs into vertical forces. As a result of this subtle coordination, the forelegs are capable to produce greater upward propulsive forces, further enhancing balance control. None of these elements of balance control can be properly stimulated by half halt. Jean Luc Cornille

From: Helyn Cornille

Jackie Cochran · Advanced

Thank you again Jean Luc for your explanation!!!

When I do what my riding teacher praises as a good half halt my intention is NOT switching the horse's weight to his hindquarters. I am politely asking the horse to reduce the force of his impulse, usually when there is unwanted acceleration. The only reason my hands would come up is because the horse moves his head up in response to my two seperate LIGHT direct rein of opposition (right hand when right hind swinging forward & vice versa), at first around 1 gram and increasing in strength if there is no response. If at a canter I use both hands at once, at the trot and walk I alternate hands (NOT sawing.) I also straighten up a little bit in the saddle and let my heels go down. I essentially "steady" the horse.

I never do a seperate aid to "warn" the horse that something is coming up. The horse is perfectly capable of reading my position and is often ready and waiting for the signal or signals. If the horse is not ready I merely repeat the aid at the proper time in the horse's stride. Rarely do I have to ask more than three times for either. But then I am just doing ring riding. I am sure that if I was competing, galloping cross-country, hunting, or show jumping I would have to be more emphatic with my aids to get the same obedience.

barnfrog · Advanced

So, helen....does JLC do a demi arret? How does he achieve better balance/change balance in the horse?

Horses flex all their hindleg joints more effectualy when up and open, thrusting upard (collection) and releasing forward into extension?

Why does the horse need to be 'decelerated' except if is too quickened in the first place? Or accerlated?

Tempo as a general rule is the same in all gaits (perhaps a smidge slower in extension as they have more air time).

Alan, the thighs are part of the continuem of the seat, tension in thighs do create an effect upon the seat. For me hh/demi arrets/effect d'ensemble are not imaginary phenomenon. The horse focuses, and or changes its balance as the result of actions. There should be viable differences (sometimes in tempo) some times in use of the hindlegs, sometimes in balance. It is action on riders part changing (or preparing) for horse's action/reactions. If the horse in increasing its tempo, the question is why? Rider's imbalance, horse to closed/low, horses being run off its feet. All those things are not willful disobediences, they are reactions to what the horse is being asked to do by the rider. If the horse is out of balance, first change the bearing, then ask for the next request. Not merely ask for something when the horse is not in a balance to do the next request in the first place.

The weight carried behind is related the compression of the hindquarters joints, and when this happens there is more 'stored power' in the compression of the joints (that to the expreme complete flexion amounts to sitting/a levade.

Why would there be a direct rein of opposition in an action of the hand? Imho the horse meets the hand and maintains the balnce.

For me it is key to warn the horse (and/or refine its balance) before a transition, have better used of the hindleg joints. THis can be diagonal aids/lateral aids/or bilateral actions.

And why would the rider need to be more emphatic with the aids unless the horse is out of balance, or missing a reaction, or has lost focus? For me that needs defintion.

Jackie Cochran · Advanced

Why would a horse need more emphatic aids? As a horse moves up to a cross-country trot, canter (NOT a collected canter),and gallop, the horse takes a stronger hold of the bit--usually from several ounces to a few pounds. This accompanies the horse's center of gravity moving forward with increased speed. At the same time the cross-country horse is doing his part of the job, judging the ground and how to get over it, therefore the horse is not paying quite as much attention to the hand aids. Between the horse taking a firmer contact the horse's concentrating on the ground in front of him, and the general excitement of going fast, the horse does not notice the light hand aids that he would have no trouble noticing in a ring at collected gaits.

I use the direct rein of opposition to reduce the forward swing of the hind leg on the same side. I rarely use both direct reins of opposition at once for the walk and trot because the hind legs come forward at different times in these gaits. I use these rein aids in addition to the regular contact that the horse gives me when I ask him to reach forward and take contact, applying the aid as the horse's head rises and my seat (or stirrup) goes down on that side, releasing the aid as the horse's head goes down and forward, ending up with normal contact.

I do not ride in collection. My horse usually determines his head carriage, poll flexion, and the amount of contact. My hands follow his head (my hands belong to the horse's mouth) and I try to give all hand aids at the proper moment in the horse's stride so they do not irritate him.

helyn · Yearling

The decelerating phase of the hind and front legs is not the result of a previous acceleration. The decelerating phase, which is also referred to as the braking phase, is the normal kinematics and dynamic of the hind and front legs for every horse at every gait and stride. As the hind leg alights, gravity is pulling the horse body down and inertia force is pushing the horse’s body forward. The hind leg on support resists these impact forces. The joints act as shock absorbers. Muscles tendons and ligaments are part of the shock absorbing mechanism. A tendon accumulates elastic strain energy as it elongates and restitutes the energy as it returns to its normal length. This energy produces the elastic recoil that propels the limb forward into the swing phase. The muscles are also involved in the storage and production of energy. The most efficient work is known as eccentric contraction, where the muscles elongate while contracting. In fact the muscle cells work as concentric contraction, (shortening). The elongation is due to an external force such as the impact forces. Scientific studies use the term negative work. This does not mean that eccentric contractions are bad. Negative work means that the direction of the muscle elongation is the opposite of the direction of the muscle cells’ contractions. This type of contraction produces considerable force. One theory is that the muscle cells produce high power force in order to do not be ripped by the elongation. If the eccentric contraction is immediately followed by a concentric contraction, the extra energy created by the eccentric contraction is used in the following concentric contraction. This system is so efficient that this extra energy alone is almost sufficient to produce the following contraction. A man can jog at his natural frequency with minimum muscular work. As well, a horse can trot at it natural cadence almost effortlessly. This system works when the frequency of the contractions is the frequency that is comfortable for the athlete. For the horse the comfortable frequency can be called the horse natural cadence.

It is not the compression of the joints which store energy during the first half of the stride and restitutes the energy during the second half. Instead, it is the system of tendons ligaments and muscles that is doing the job. The braking phase of the hind legs lasts the initial 45% of the stride. The braking phase of the forelegs lasts about 40% of the stride. Of course, the horse’s brain adapts the duration and intensity of the braking phase in response to the situation and the nature of the effort. During piaff for instance, the hind legs produce a considerable decelerating activity in order to resist forward shift of the body over the forelegs. This is why the problem is not how one executes the half halt. It does not matter if the cue is the hands or the thighs. All these cues have very little chance to guide the horse’s brain toward longer duration and intensity of the hind legs’ decelerating phase. The sequence of the stride is so quick that the normal control nervous system which is based on feed-back correction is too slow. Only the horse’s brain can adjust duration and intensity of the decelerating phase and the rider’s action needs to guide the horse’s brain toward the right reaction. We will explain in the next installment about half halt how the rider can do that. JLC

barnfrog · Advanced

Imho a horse only takes a stronger hold of the bit if the rider participates. Do they take you to a fence? For sure. But whether the horse is much stronger x-country is the rider's participation. Hunting and xcountry I did not participate in allowing the horse to be stronger, for gallopping tbs I did, that is part of them getting strong.

Why would they not pay attention to the hand conneciton? Why is there excitement attached to the hand?

If the hand belongs to the mouth (ie following telescoping in w/c), then why would there be a necessity for a direction rein of opposition? Imho any aid to be used properly must be in a coordination with the gait.

JLC, obviously compression of all the joints is done through the muscles, they are what allow elasticity. So, how does the rider speak to the horse if not through the aids?

helyn · Yearling

If you want to believe that the joints compress, that the neck does have a telescopic action and that your hands can help the horse, this is your choice. The only problem is that this is not at all the way the horse’s body functions. I suggest reading Waspish ghosts http://www.scienceofmotion.com/waspish_ghosts.html

barnfrog · Advanced

Imho that is not answering the question (and for what it is worth I have all your ebooks/and vids), but clarity is still needed rather than dismissal or referal.

Ok, in the name of discussion....let's go to something like levade....are the joints not all folded/compressed in their angles? (Of course this is from the use of muscles/limited by ligaments/etc, imho that is an obvious part). Do we cause reactions in the muscles use with our aids/weight/etc? Isnt that clear. Do necks (aka their balancing rod) not participate in changes of balance (clearest form of that is over fences, they need to bascule/telescope or they jump like a deer), is the horse not longer (in the neck) in extensions? Do the hands 'help' the horse understand what we ask? More they at part of symphony of aids, just as the seat/leg/weight are. But if you work a horse in hand, your hands are effecting a discussion with the horse are they not (like a dance partner)?

There are some great texts out there which specifically tell what muscle effects what movement (abbuctor/adductor/opening/closing), but we also train the entire body. If we do not irregularitys and unsoundness are caused.

As a gymast JLC you had to learn a lot about how your body functioned, what action produced reactions, and has taken that to the equine. And it is complicated because your actions have to be understood and develop action/reactions in the horse. I love reading your conclusions. Such work is always important. Dr. Nancy Nicholsen have spent the last 30 years on many of the same things, using points of the horse and then studying them with computer imput (to show muscles/bones/balance in motion) and put them into a very digestible treatise as well which is more simple for the average consumer. Hopefully everyone has many texts to help our study as laymen (vs becoming a vet) more well rounded.

-- Edited by barnfrog on Tuesday 25th of October 2011 12:24:34 PM

helyn · Yearling

Might I remind you that you started this never ending diatribe about a text that we have published about half halt. The point was to explain that the concept of weight transfer, which is the main thought behind most theories of half halt, is a misconception. We specifically pointed out that the discussion was not about how to ask half halt since there are as many theories as you can imagine. The fact that balance is not achieved transferring the weight backward on the haunches is a knowledge that could help good riders to move away from all the half halt executed pulling on the reins. You spent numerous paragraphs about how you are executing half halt and why your technique was so great. I guess, I did not show the admiration that you expected and started to argue on insignificant details which are not the subject of the discussion. You believe for instance that the flexion of the hocks’ joints is a compression. I told you, If that is what you want to believe that is your choice. Obviously you cannot accept the fact that your opinion might not be universally accepted. You are now on the levade trying to make a point which only convince yourself. Talking about clarity, what an example. We start by half halt and are now on levade. The funny point is that levade has already been used to prove another point which is another misconception. When research studies demonstrated that balance was not achieved increasing the weight on the hind legs but rather was created increasing the decelerating phase of the hind leg, another expert used levade to prove that more weight was on the hind legs when the horse was in absolute balance. All the example demonstrated is that when the hind legs are the only limbs on the ground, all the weight is on the hind legs. Whao, impressive. You see the hocks in compression when the horse is in levade. I see hocks in half flexion trying hard to remain stable. The hocks are joints which do not have synartrotic or close packed position. The hocks are designed to take the impact forces at the angle they have when the horse is standing. The flexion they have to sustain when they are flexed as heavily as during the levade is not what they are designed to do and definitively does not enhance the hocks elastic recoil. If you want to ask a question, ask a question, precise and intelligent if you want to throw affirmations, there are many blogs in the internet which are entertaining this type of diatribe. You should try these blogs.
Good by.
Jean Luc

barnfrog · Advanced

Lots of questions are not a diatribe, but asking for discussion. And I still remain confused about your POV because there are not. So tend to try to reason it out w/o more info. And still have questions about what you use instead (of hh) as well.

-- Edited by barnfrog on Wednesday 26th of October 2011 08:29:34 PM

helyn · Yearling

He does not have the time for discussions. If you have a question will be answered with factual information and he is not interested in your opinion.... His life work and facts are presented for people that want to know the facts. If you read any of his books, or DVD's you would understand more. For example if your question is how to do half halt the response to that is in the next installment..which was stated at end of previous article.Helyn

Laura F · Well Schooled

I read the articles, but I am not experienced enough to understand everything. I like reading these discussions because other people's ideas help me understand more and give me things to think about when I am riding. I read other people's way of doing things and find it very helpful.

-- Edited by Laura F on Thursday 27th of October 2011 10:14:51 AM

Jackie Cochran · Advanced

Well said Laura!

I also like reading the discussions, they make me think.

Barbara F · Grand Prix

Hi all,

The reason I started this discussion was to discuss technical knowledge as opposed to riding with "feel". I hope we can talk about that a bit. :)

In my experience, some people read tons of books, watch DVDs and know in theory what you need to do when you are riding, but they can't actually do any of it when they are on the horse. Other riders seem to have a natural feel. They ride softly and correctly, almost instinctively. I am somewhere in the middle. I have been riding for a zillion years and have acquired the correct feel by working with excellent coaches who have guided me along the way. Of course, as the saying goes, you can't teach feel, but I think you can help someone find it, and I think that can only be done on the horse, rather than through textbook knowledge. Not that we shouldn't read! Just that I think reading advances someone's knowledge, but not necessarily their riding feel.

Thoughts?

spirithorse · Advanced

The "FEEL" is the most fundamental requirement to have a working connection with the horse.

Comprehending technical jargon requires the thought process and that process tends to bog down the working relationship between rider and horse.

When I work with a client, I strive for the client to gain the 'feel' and when they do I explain in the simplest way the hows and whys of what is happening biomechanically.

Jackie Cochran · Advanced

Yes, Barbara, you HAVE to ride to make any sense out of the equestrian writings. This is part of the reason that during the five years when I could not ride I did not read any riding books, there was too great a danger of going off on the wrong track with my thinking (besides I could not stand reading about riding when I could not ride, it hurt too much emotionally.)

Long, long ago when I could really ride I often despaired because it was ultra obvious that I did not have that natural "feel". Over and over I read that feel could not be taught, and that it was inborn and if you did not have it you could pretty well give up any ambitions of riding at an advanced level.

When I was diagnosed with MS I realized WHY I did not have "feel", and that I would NEVER have this inborn "feel", but still wanting to ride at a higher level I decided I would have to LEARN feel. Since most of my life I could not afford lessons (horse, house and child poor) I had to depend on reading and trying to apply what I read to my horse. Most of the time my horse said NO, this is not right, and I learned to listen to my horse. As a result I learned how to feel the horse's NO very, very well.

When I finally read about how to time effective aids I finally was able to build my "feel" (yeah Udo Burger!!!). It has taken a lot of conscious riding to build the habits so that it looks like I ride with natural, inborn "feel" but I know better. My riding ability has nothing to do with having a healthy nervous system that works, sense of balance, a proprioceptive sense, ability to coordinate, or sense of timing, it is all based on what I've learned from reading and my horse saying NO or YES, and when he says YES I know I've thought through the process well enough so I reflect the reality of how the horse moves. It does have a lot to do with reading a lot, reflecting a lot on what I read, figuring out the logical progression of the aids, and then asking the horse I am riding if I am right. After a few YEARS of doing this my body starts to get into the habit of moving at the proper moment. But when my MS acts up I have to go back to thinking things through. A few times a year my body will suddenly start working right and my hands, legs, and seat automatically do what they are supposed to at the right time and it feels ODD to me.
This is why it takes me up to ten times as long as a rider born with feel to get anywhere! I just don't give up.

barnfrog · Advanced

Helyn/JLC, there have been a string of specific questions begging for description, responses, and/or discussion. That is generally what bulletin board forums are about. As a prolific writer of some great articles (way back in Dressage and CT), it is always good to learn more, discuss (in depth) salient points which effect ease of training and understanding, we all have posted many responses question here.

Here is a list if there is things for discussing them (from the first post on):
1 Are you saying (re Jackies observations) that operant conditioning is negative (since this was question from the first reaction to the article)? or

(re barb's question) That hh is about feel alone? How much theory do we need? (Helyn's/jlc's follow up is that hh do not exist.)
2.So if they do not exist what is the action/reaction on the horse in the video? Observations of amplitude/trust? How is that created? 3 What does one call the actions shown?
4 Since there have been force plate testings of how much percentage of weight transfer (in collection), are these tests based upon wrong suppositions, and that it is about thrust/muscle actions? Again, difficult to follow.

5 What (actions) do you propose to balance (rebalance) the horse's body/reactions?
6 The video (which is under hh title) is not meant to show a hh, but a phase of balance(or??) This is confusing imho.

7 You believe the neck does NOT have a telescopic reaction (in extensions), nor that is a balancing rod?
8 That hands are not part of the system of aids? Is it seat only? Leg only? How do we cause reactions in the horses muscles use with our aids/weight/etc? Isnt that clear.
8 What about when the horse is working in hand?

9 Since you do not believe in a hh, do you believe in a demi-arret? If not, why not? What instead?

(I have all the books/dvds from jlc, but would like definition nevertheless. Or, as jackie says, make sense out of the (more technical type writing.)

We are ALL here because we want to mull over factual information, and base our training upon those things. As a teacher, clarity of these details is necessary.
10 So, if hh is a 'red herring' of traditional training, then what do we do instead?

11 Since the article was about hh, it is just the idea of changing weight which is problematic for jlc, or the action to product it (or both), or the effect upon the horse? Perhaps this should be the FIRST QUESTION?

Remember bb 'morph' in 'streams of consciousness'. Sometimes we all are talking of the op's post/link, and sometimes we are responding to each other's posts. If the subject of the OP's link doesn't want to clarify/discuss the posts we all tend to go on our suppositions or our assumptions (and you know what they say about assuming).

Agree with Jackie, about riding with balance/ease, and I love Burger (and his effects of peeps like Heushman/etc). For me, the use of technical writing is to either explain how a horse moves with greater ease/can be kept sounder/etc. And then the actions of the rider has to be timed with the horse's body in order to help us have the best possible conversation with the horse. We are all here to build our understanding for the good of the horse.

How jlc's work fits into this I thought was clear to me....but clearly he does not think we understand or have our own waspish ghosts. So, we need clarity.

-- Edited by barnfrog on Thursday 27th of October 2011 12:26:32 PM

Jackie Cochran · Advanced

I have an enormous advantage over many people because my favorite equestrian author, Vladimir Littauer, published riding books over a 50 year period. In each of his later books he corrects mistakes he made in his earlier books, mistakes of perception, theory and practice, and Littauer was merciless about his own mistakes, he says where he was wrong and how it negatively effected the horses and how he changed his system (though it took months or years) to reflect his new knowledge. I do not think there is another equestrian author who did this over decades so that the dedicated reader can see the thought processes of a great teacher change over time.
Because of my study of Littauer's books, when I first read Jean Luc Cornille's writtings here and on the Science of Motion web site I at least had a basis of knowledge. The writings of JLC have greatly expanded on my previous knowledge from the FS authors, and shown me how this knowledge can be transferred to dressage. I am in awe of JLC's knowledge of how the horse moves his body. There is no way in the world that I will ever know as much as he does.

THANK YOU JEAN LUC AND HELYN FOR SHARING YOUR KNOWLEDGE!!!!!

In my riding I have found that any technique that does not fit within my FS riding/training system ruins how the horse moves (please remember I am not a natural horseman). Every time I read a dressage book I am looking for knowledge I can use that fits into how I ride. Reading Jean Luc I now know why this works for me and the horses I ride. To understand Jean Luc more I will have to invest in several books, spend a LOT of time reading, looking at pictures, and visualizing, but at least now I know WHY I need to learn this. Though I cannot ride as well as JLC he has positively affected the way I ride the horses and the horses are grateful for this.

No one is born knowing everything. No one is born knowing how to evaluate information and ideas. But as long as we expand our horzons and keep adding to our knowledge (and listen to our horses) we can improve our riding no matter how old, tired and crippled we get.

barnfrog · Advanced

What precisely are you referring to with Littaur's works? (Did you ride with him? And note the difference of what he applied to what he called the 'average rider' (working on loose reins) and the more educated one (riding on contact)?

Certainly Baucher did change over his lifetime, as does PK as well (don't we all????)

What is an FS system?

helyn · Yearling

Helyn/JLC, there have been a string of specific questions begging for description, responses, and/or discussion. Perhaps it would be more productive if the individuals in question were asking themselves the question instead of your interpretation of their question. Understood of course that the question is formulated as a question and not as an affirmation. That is generally what bulletin board forums are about. As a prolific writer of some great articles (way back in Dressage and CT), it is always good to learn more, discuss (in depth) salient points which effect ease of training and understanding, we all have posted many responses question here. If your point is learning, why are you refusing new ideas. I explained to you how muscles and tendons and ligaments are creating propulsive force but you have to translate the information into compression of the hocks joints because this is what you want to believe. On the subject, I provided information much more in depth than the diatribes that you are entertaining but you dismissed the information in favor of your beliefs. You are not in these forums for the quest of knowledge. The idea of a forum is a good idea but what you are doing with a good idea is not.

We are having during our Immersion programs real forums with knowledgeable persons from different specialties. If you would come you would realize what is really a discussion in depth. Participants of the immersion week ends are introduced to a level of knowledge that surprise them at first but quickly unveil their true capacities. Soon, they are talking about ideas and no longer about peoples or themselves. We have seen participants arriving with the strong determination to expose the value of their beliefs. They were taken by surprise at first by the level of the information but quickly were seduced by the clarity and the fact that they were comfortable in the understanding of new perspectives. They were later during the day active and interesting participants of fructuous discussions.

Here is a list if there is things for discussing them (from the first post on):
1 Are you saying (re Jackies observations) that operant conditioning is negative (since this was question from the first reaction to the article)? or

It is primitive. Horses communicate and process and learn at a more sophisticated level

(re barb's question) That hh is about feel alone? How much theory do we need? (Helyn's/jlc's follow up is that hh do not exist.) Feeling exist since as long as humans have worked with equines. The understanding of the horse’s balance control is totally different today that it was even 30 years ago. Feeling has lead our ancestors to believe that the back was a swinging unit. Measurements have demonstrated that during locomotion, the equine back was subject to very restricted movements. Feeling is how we perceive the horse emotions and motions. Without a sound understanding of the equine neurophysiology and locomotors mechanism, feeling is likely to lead to misconceptions.

.So if they do not exist what is the action/reaction on the horse in the video? Observations of amplitude/trust? How is that created? You are trying to mix everything. The video shows the decelerating and propulsive phase of the hind and front legs. The two successive phases, which occur during each stride are part of the horse’s balance control. Unless directed by a bizarre agenda, I do not see how anyone can be confused with the information. In fact, you are the only one who has been confused by the video

3 What does one call the actions shown? Since there have been force plate testings of how much percentage of weight transfer (in collection), are these tests based upon wrong suppositions, and that it is about thrust/muscle actions? Again, difficult to follow. If you read the studies for the purpose of better train better horses you will find information about different weight distribution during collection but not about backward shift of the weight. The mastery of balance involves a complex mechanism and the role of the hind and front legs has been regarded quite differently since the apparition of technologies measuring force production. There are also studies made with accelerometers which are even better since they do not limit the horse to one stride and one situation. Balance is achieved increasing the duration of the support phase and not increasing the weight. This can easily be understood since the hind legs control the horse’s balance during the decelerating phase. In fact, Jose Morales demonstrated that a longer duration of the support phase was how the horse adapted to the addition of the rider’s weight. Earlier on, Nancy Deuel demonstrated that during the stride preceding the flying change, the supporting hind legs are increasing the duration of their support to better balance the horse for the following flying change. Would you like to know more, I would be the first to help you, but when the purpose is ego over knowledge, sorry, I am not interested.

5 What (actions) do you propose to balance (rebalance) the horse's body/reactions? This will be explained in the next installment about half halt.

6 The video (which is under hh title) is not meant to show a hh, but a phase of balance(or??) This is confusing imho. I don’t see how it can be confusing to show a sequence of the stride that is directly involved in the horse’s ability to control balance. This is information. The confusion may be your reaction to an information that questions your opinions.

7 You believe the neck does NOT have a telescopic reaction (in extensions) For your information, what you are referring as an extension is technically a flexion. The lowering of the neck is a flexion. The lifting of the neck or even its inversion is an extension, nor that is a balancing rod? Even as a metaphor. telescopic action is a bad word and wrong idea. The neck does not have any telescopic action. The neck can change shape but the vertebrae cannot compress or extend. Of course the neck is involved in balance. The problem is that each horse does have its own neck position. Techniques attempting to place the neck into a specific posture are likely to hamper the horse’s performance. When the back is properly working, the horse does places his neck is a position that allows better functioning of the whole spine.

8 That hands are not part of the system of aids? Is it seat only? Leg only? How do we cause reactions in the horses muscles use with our aids/weight/etc? Isnt that clear. The concept of specific aids is archaic. the whole rider’s body, nuances in muscle tone and energy are part of the language. A great part of the horse’s body coordination is conceived in the horse’s brain. Riding is not about submitting the horse to a set of aids. This only allow simplistic performances far below the horse’s talent. The rider’s body is involved into a language that guides the horse’s brain toward the body coordination precisely adapted to the physical demand of the performance. For instance. There are all together 344 complex and primitive articulations in the horse’s vertebral column. Which aids do you seriously think are going to orchestrate the whole vertebral column system?

8 What about when the horse is working in hand? The work in hand, the way we are practicing it is not at all about obedience to aids. This is why the technique can be used to rehabilitate horses when other techniques have failed. If you want to know more about it, why don’t you come on Friday November 18th. The full day is consecrated to the work in hand. You can learn how to do it and feel the horse’s response. Once you will have felt the horse’s response you will understand that limiting one’s equitation to the application of correct aids is far below the horse’s mental capacities and sensitivity.

9 Since you do not believe in a hh, do you believe in a demi-arret? If not, why not? What instead? Let me translate demi arret for you. (Demi) in English is Half. (Arret) in English is Halt. However there is a difference between what the French school means by demi arret and what the German school means by Parade. Half halt in America is a confuse mixture of both the German Parade and the French demi arret. The half halts that are not working are the half halts trying to shift the horse’s weight backward. The half halts which are working are the ones respect[ng the way the horse is controlling balance. The fact is that when an equitation is understanding how the horse controls balance and focus on preparing efficiently the horse’s physique for balance control, there is no need of half halt.

(I have all the books/dvds from jlc, but would like definition nevertheless. Or, as jackie says, make sense out of the (more technical type writing.) Jackie is right and does it well with her own problem

We are ALL here because we want to mull over factual information, and base our training upon those things. As a teacher, clarity of these details is necessary. The equestrian education abounds in explanation of details but miss the most important, which is how the horse’s body works. This is the fundamental problem and the understanding of the way the horse’s body effectively functions is constantly evolving. Based on this knowledge any talented rider does adapt to his or her own style. Details are hampering the rider’s talent. Instead, understanding of the equine physiology is supporting the rider’s talent. Judging standards explain in great detail how the shoulder in is supposed to looks like and completely miss sound understanding of la Gueriniere’s idea. As a result, each time the owner of a horse that we have rehabilitate has to use shoulder in, we have to restore the true meaning of la Gueriniere idea and provide a complete reeducation of the shoulder in.

10 So, if hh is a 'red herring' of traditional training, then what do we do instead? Learn how the horse’s body work and do not apply any technique without a sound understanding of how the technique is acting on the horse’s physique. If you want limitate your equitation to the application of cues, do not pretend to be there to mull over factual information.

11 Since the article was about hh, it is just the idea of changing weight which is problematic for jlc, or the action to product it (or both), or the effect upon the horse? Perhaps this should be the FIRST QUESTION? In fact this is the only question that is related to the article. The problem of weight transfer is not problematic for me. It is problematic for the horse. Whatever half halt the rider is applying the horse response will not be transferring its weight backward. Exactly like the horse executing piaff with a trainer activating the hind legs with a dressage whip, the horse is submitted to a stimulus that is creating a reflex opposed to the effort that the horse is supposed to achieved. However, great horses are capable to piaff inspite of the wrong stimulus because they are intelligent enough to figure what they are supposed to perform. Horses are capable to figure that the rider’s action is about balance and may improve their balance. They will do so using the decelerating phase of their hind legs and the forward control through their spine of the thrust generated by the hind legs. They will then optimize the upward propulsive activity of their forelegs. They will not shift their weight backward. The second installment about half halt commences explaining how the horse does achieved balance control. The most efficient way to help the horse is then explained.

Remember bb 'morph' in 'streams of consciousness'. Sometimes we all are talking of the op's post/link, and sometimes we are responding to each other's posts. If the subject of the OP's link doesn't want to clarify/discuss the posts we all tend to go on our suppositions or our assumptions (and you know what they say about assuming).Maybe you should also read the psychologist Tom Gilovich who says that when we want to believe a proposition, we ask, “Can I believe it?” — and we look only for evidence that the proposition might be true. If we find a single piece of evidence then we’re done. We stop. We have a reason we can trot out to support our belief. But if we don’t want to believe a proposition, we ask, “Must I believe it?” — and we look for an escape hatch, a single reason why maybe, just maybe, the proposition is false.

Agree with Jackie, about riding with balance/ease, and I love Burger (and his effects of peeps like Heushman/etc). For me, the use of technical writing is to either explain how a horse moves with greater ease/can be kept sounder/etc. And then the actions of the rider has to be timed with the horse's body in order to help us have the best possible conversation with the horse. We are all here to build our understanding for the good of the horse. I do agree with you. The point is that science evolves at very high speed. If I had been aware in the seventies of the phenomenon of transversal rotation, I would have resolve the problem of an extraordinary three day event Olympic level horse. I asked to all the greatest riders in Europe who came during this period at the Olympic center of Fontainebleau. Some even rode the horse. Together, we tried to figure the problem but we did not. They were great riders. They were the best at this time but they did not know, no more than I did, about a phenomenon that is common knowledge in modern days. The teaching of great masters is not to limit ourselves to what they knew. Instead each great author regards his or her book as a work in transition. A stop over along the way. Modern horses are ten time better that the horses of our predecessors and applying the same techniques that our ancestors do not serve these horses. This is why insanities such as the rollkur appeared. Riders are overwhelm by the power and spirit and intelligence of great horses and their riding and training techniques are too elementary. They have then to resort to systems applying hyper flexion in an area of the neck which does not have the soft tissue structures to support such stress. The horses have no other way out than submissions. These abuses are the result of the human resistance to progress, a good example of which is the nature of these questions.

How jlc's work fits into this I thought was clear to me. Considering the nature of your comments, you obviously did not read in depth the material or you interpreted it with a mind set on your beliefs...but clearly he does not think we may be you should not use other peoples as an umbrella and say I instead of we understand or have our own waspish ghosts. So, we need clarity. We have received a surprisingly large number of responses about the last two installments. The one about transversal rotations and the one about half halt. You are the only one who complain about clarity. As long as a text will not fit what you want to believe you will complain about clarity. In the same line of mental resistance is the complain about simplicity and under the name od simplicity ludicrous theories are currently crippling horses. Read General Decarpentry’s Academic equitation. The officer who decides to prepare a horse for international dressage tests is going beyond the limits of his equestrian education.” (Decarpentry, 1949)The same problem is real in modern days. The equestrian education promotes simplistic concepts such as correct aids equal correct movement. The elementary theories are restricting riders and horses’ talents. Today like yesterday, genius are capable to train their horse beyond the limits of the equestrian education. Thanks to better understanding of the equine physiology, the genius of few can now be explained and profit others. The ones who really want to improve their riding technique have to look out of the box and so far the practical application of advanced scientific discoveries is the best option. A very large majority of riders and trainers are eager to know. By contrast, your resistance to knowledge reflects a very small minority. Sorry to disappoint you but in response to a large demand, we will continue to provide pertinent and founded information. If they aggravate you that badly, may I suggest that you do not read them. JLC

Jackie Cochran · Advanced

I did not ride with Littauer, I wish!!!! I did learn from Littauer's students and followers though.

About his changes, in his first book he was writing about modern jumping but all the riding on the flat was based on Fillis's dressage system. Then he wrote a book on jumping, and later Littauer explained how he was wrong and how that showed up in the photos. Next was his scientific work, "The Defense of the Forward Seat", after which he dropped all collection from his teaching. Then, in his first training book he gave full credit to a Chilean cavalryman for the form of his training. Later on in life, when he had more time to study he wrote on the rigidity of the spine and how he changed his method to reflect reality. In his book "How the Horse Jumps" he corrected further mistakes, including when the hock flexes before takeoff and some subtle observations of the gaits.

Littauer was not right about everything, for instance he never changed from the viewpoint that dressage riders shift the weight of the horse back to its hind legs, but then Littauer stopped riding and teaching dressage back in the 1930's, and for the rest of his life he repeated what he had learned about dressage from the Russian Cavalry school teachings based on Fillis.

Littauer's system of teaching riding did not have most people stay as elementary riders for long. Contact enters when the rider has a strong base in her legs, and can follow the rhythm of the horse. These riders were considered intermediate and were expected to learn the "automatic release" which was not a release of the horse but keeping light contact from takeoff, over the jump, and through the landing. As the intermediate riders got better then they learned flexions of the jaw, and entered the highest points of Forward Seat riding. At this point the riders were introduced to "semi-collection" and "semi-extensions" which are used for BRIEF periods when needed.

FS is Forward Seat, the modern method of riding, which was developed by Federico Caprilli in the Italian Cavalry between 1897 and 1907 when he died. Caprilli had decided that riding based on collection was improper for cross-country riding and jumping, and worked that whole decade in refining his vision of the horse moving naturally. Since the Italian riders started winning international jumping competitions on inferior horses it quickly got the attention of the world. The (USA) Fort Riley Cavalry seat was based on Caprilli AND what the Saumar school taught. Caprilli did not only change the seat, he changed the whole method of controlling and schooling the horse, the FS is a complete system, based on observing horses, unmounted and mounted, going cross-country and jumping, dedicated to enabling the horse to move as the horse thinks best, with occasional suggestions from the rider on how to improve Littauer brought in more formal schooling, but in ALL FS schools collection is not used.

Littauer did not know as much as JLC! But I suspect that he would have listened to JLC with great respect and used the new knowledge to further improve the Forward Seat system in the USA.

spirithorse · Advanced

Details are hampering the rider’s talent. Instead, understanding of the equine physiology is supporting the rider’s talent

This is a truthful statement. However, I have discovered that the majority of clinicians and trainers who claim to school using biomechanics simply do not understand the biomechanical requirements of the horse and they do not understand nor correlate human biomechanics into the equation.

There are two biomechanical units in play when a horse is ridden and thus the affects of the rider's biomechanics must be a part of the education of the rider.

helyn · Yearling

That is absolutly true and we totaly agree with you.