Dynamic Upper Respiratory Obstruction

Marlene · Advanced

Dynamic Upper Respiratory Obstruction

Marlene · Advanced

Well I'm gradually figuring out that this is not totally new information, although it's perhaps relatively recent. so it hasn't had a big effect so far. It begs the question, how much proof do you need? How many studies, while thousands of horses (not just the dressage horses, or race horses), could be suffering? Since not every single horse is affected to the same degree, this can always be used as an excuse. It's someone else's horse who is experiencing obstruction. Most horses have only some obstruction, so we can magically tell which horses are experiencing more serious obstruction. How many horses are being retired quietly, or eliminated because they just "weren't suited to the sport", rather than admitting it's the practices which are causing problems?

It also makes me think about the motivation for using hyperflexion, riders say it calms and relaxes their horse (and often the horse was particularly difficult to start with, I wonder why). It is also known that high co2 levels in the blood can calm and relax certain brain centers. So is hyperflexion so effective because the horses are being slightly suffocated? Think about the effect on a an animal who has been the prey for millions of years. His reaction to suffocation, give in to the inevitable darkness, don't fight the predator on your back today.

-- Edited by Marlene on Saturday 21st of January 2012 11:04:49 PM

spirithorse · Advanced

What ticks me off about this is that there is endoscope that is on a halter that can prove or disprove any claims about upper airway obstruction. BUT NO ONE will put it to work.

I do know that we subjugate the horse and it has no way of letting us know what we are doing to it, except rebel and then we punish the horse.

I can say that on race horses, the use of Spirit Bridle did improve the breathing and performance of horses. So that says there is at least one problem occuring with breathing and bits.

Marlene · Advanced

It would probably be more difficult to force a horse into flexion with a bitless bridle (after all you can't use the pain of the bit, or their effort to avoid it), but I think it might be possible even with bitless if you seriously misused it. There have always been riders who had hard hands, then horses just got a hard mouth. But with a bitless, I would think it is possible for a horse to become "hard nosed" instead. Perhaps not likely with some horses, like mine, who seems to think he has a say in any piece of equipment or how I am using it, that doesn't meet his "standard". But many horses have just learned to "suck it up" because their riders aren't listening. You can use a snaffle with a feather light touch, or resist using it till you really think it is necessary. You can yard on a bitless bridle continually and nag your horse to death too.

spirithorse · Advanced

Just skimmmed the study....and it proves the over flexion of the horse causes airway impediment.

As for bitless bridles...yes the rider can over bend and impede just like a bit.

I am so glad that there is now validation to what so many folks have been saying for years.

Now just maybe things will change.....oh right I forgot its FEI

spirithorse · Advanced

This is the first scientific research paper I could locate that used a videoendoscope on a ridden horse in order actually have a visual effects of flexion.

If FEI and federations judges choose to ignore this report than they will have to suffer the consequences....at least here in the U.S.

barnfrog · Advanced

A horse can be forced into incorrect flexion in any headgear at it can occur in a compressed high frame or a lower closed one. The trachea suffers when the throatlatch is too closed.

Studies with videoendoscopes are often used. Case in point (I have a student who is in vet school and who works with the treadmill group at this vet school): rider brings here horse in with 'breathing problems'. They endo the horse and it is just fine. Then vet says, show us how you ride the horse (the posture). Owners saws horse down and closed and the horse's trachea collapses (apparently reoccurant closing breaks down the stability). So, they tell her he cannot bet ridden that way. What does she say (wait for it): well then I will have to sell this (psg) horse because that (overflexion) is how upper level hroses must be trained!!!

But those pix in the paper.....both not good pix.

-- Edited by barnfrog on Sunday 22nd of January 2012 12:57:56 PM

Jackie Cochran · Advanced

My data is limited, but before the introduction of freer movement (Forward Seat) roaring was a big problem with English hunters and carriage horses. I have a book from the 1940's,"Bridle Wise" by S. G. Goldschmidt, one that combined schooling for hunting (old English hunt seat) and polo. He heavily recommended schooling ALL polo horses and hunters with bearing reins during schooling on the ground. He wanted the horses' heads UP even if it caused a bulge on the underside of the neck. Carriage horses were also expected to carry their heads as high a possible.

I am thinking it might not just be the overflexion but also unnaturally high head carriage that contributes to the problem. Could this also be linked to a vertical wind pipe? Do ASBs have problems with roaring? Arabs carry their heads higher than most horses, but most Arabs are very wide between the jaws, at least with my 14 hand or so high Arabs I could rattle my fist between the jowls. My fist was way too big to get between my Paso Fino's jowl bones and she was 14 hands too.

People used to write about "choking" the horse back when too impulsive. Looks like that is literally what is happening, doesn't it.

Just consider all the dressage riders writing about "working through" resistances. Now we are finding that these resistances often come from the rider, who, in the name of perfectly subjegating the horse, is twisting its spine awry (Jean Luc) and partially strangling the horse (above study). Not a pretty picture at all.

LISTEN TO YOUR HORSE, he is telling you the truth. If your riding makes your horse show signs of discomfort and resistance it is better to change your riding rather than trying to change the horse.

Barbara F · Grand Prix

spirithorse wrote:
I do know that we subjugate the horse and it has no way of letting us know what we are doing to it, except rebel and then we punish the horse.

I'm going to do a mini thread hijack and just say that this is one of the MOST IMPORTANT things for us to remember. Horses do not speak English, but they DO communicate, if only we will listen.

deb · Well Schooled

smile

I thought I would weigh in on this one from both a race and a riding standpoint since I have both raced stbs for 25 years, and ridding dressage/jumper/hunter and been an eventer since I was a child.

All this is good points that I see here, from a race perspective, many people crank their horse's heads up with head checks and cruel bits all in the name of 'not choking the horse', also tounge ties are the norm, and I have even had one horseperson scream at me that I was being cruel to my horses because I refuese to wear them-- this from the person who ties her horses tounge so tight that someday it will loose all feeling and the horse will lose the ability to use it. All this in the name of 'not choking the horse', on the other hand in riding you have the desire for the horse to have an unatural head carriage of the 'choked off' position. So two different worlds, two oposite ideals of what should be. On one had I have many stbs come through my barn that had their necks perminatly ruined with a ewe neck, and an unaturally develped muscel on the bottom line of the neck, that actually did the opostie of what the race crowd wanted and the horse could choke itself off by tightening it's throat muscles in fear and panic, and on the other, I have ridden dressage horses that had had such a wildly muscled top line that they could no longer bend their heads up in a natural carriage. One can only guess at how many hours these horses had spent tied back, and ridden into the bit at great cost until they got like this.

At home whether I use my horse as a race or riding horse I let them have freedom of movent of their head, as a riding horse they are ridden lightly, and allowed to find their own head carriage, and as a race horse the same, only wearing a check in two instances, in a race if they will duck the gate (only two horses ever and only for a few starts until they forgot to try) and one horse as he is still a work in progress and was actually hurting his own mouth by snatching at the bit and tearing the lines out of the driver's hands, this is also a horse who will carry his head as a riding horse or in harness way to heigh, wears a tie down for safety and by the previous owners own admission was beaten daily (he was very proud to tell me this on occassion)-- the interesting part of this horse is that he can choke hismself off with this unusually high head carriage and wears a 'choke-plate' to race...

I am one of the only stb trainers that I know of that does not wear a check if at all possible, and to date have only worn it on this one horse for a short term solution. As a rule my horses jog, train and race without checks and all my young horses never wear checks-- my young horses under saddle all go as freely as I can as well. None of them have ever been choked either. smile

anyway, I am dead set against abuse no matter where it lies, and this includes cutting a horses air off under saddle, or in harness, and yes to the person that said that the horse will be quieter deprived of oxygen, this is a fact, I have seen it be used to 'quiet' horses both under saddle and in harness-- under saddle for a jumper that pulled, and the man who rode him was strong enough to intentionally cut his air before a class, and on the race track to jog weak necked horses that pull so that they can 'get the jog miles in'...

keep up the good work fighting against people and thier cruel ideas of what horses should endure in the name of sport, good on all of you for stickin gup for the horse.

cheers

Deb McDaid

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