This is so upsetting. The horse in the picture looks like a shackled slave :(

Barbara F · Grand Prix

This is so upsetting. The horse in the picture looks like a shackled slave :(

Figarocubed · Advanced

Dressage is pretty tame compared to what's done to WP horses, Walkers, Saddlebreds, and some Morgans and Arabs. You can find abuse anywhere, if you're looking for it and pretty hair-raising stuff it is, too.

That's one heckufa lot of stuff on that horse. Back in my long-ago youth, we were not allowed to jump in anything more than simple snaffle bits and cavesson bridles. And we were doing some decent courses -- occasionally 4.5 to 5 footers. A nicely trained and maintained horse does not need all that hardware.

So go out and kick a$$ with a kindly handled horse and prove abuse does not equal success!

Barb, if your horse is turned out within sight of other horses, he's NOT being abused or in any way mistreated.

Jackie Cochran · Advanced

I was so fortunate learning my horsemanship from hunt seat people, mostly in the Northern Virginia hunt country. They taught me GOOD HORSEMANSHIP and this became my personal "horsie moral code."

The hunt seat people were PROUD that they did not torture their horses like the Saddlebred people tortured their show horses. We were also proud that we did not abuse our horses' mouths like most Western riders did with their curbs. The goal for the experienced riders was to be able to trail ride, hunt, and show their well fed Thoroughbreds in a simple snaffle and plain cavesson with two fingers of slack. The fact that some of these horses also needed a Pelham or a martingle (standing or running) was considered proof of the limitations of the RIDER. One could address the limitations of the rider by finding decent instruction and one could address the limitations on the performance of the horse by decent training and riding.

When I looked at that picture my impressions were:
1) That the rider is not very good. The reason he (or she) is not very good is probably due to bad instruction by people who do not adhere to the standards of good horsemanship.
2) That the horse had a trainer that does not understand or follow the standards of good horsemanship.
3) That the rider's instructors/coaches do not understand or decide not to follow the standards of good horsemanship.
4) That the judges do not understand the standards of good horsemanship and equitation.

The fact that these riders/trainers get the ribbons and the cups at the shows just proves how all pervasive and accepted the torturing of horses.had become. THE ABUSED HORSE RIDDEN ABUSIVELY has become not only the NORM but also the IDEAL TO AIM FOR. Just like with the Big Lick TWHs.

deb · Well Schooled

Hi

I have three horses, of the three only one can be turned out with other horses, one is a stud, and while he loves horses and is good with them, he is just 'too much' for another horses to handle, he loves to play, and can overwhelm the most energetic of horses. The other is a gelding, and he is mean with other horses, to the point that he would kill another horse if he got it in the right postion, so he also must be by himself. We also turn them out in the paddock I rent in the sight of other horses, walk one of our horses on line with either of the two geldings loose in the paddock, and outside the paddock grass the other two that arent currently in the paddock. We also have a walker to use and all three get to go out on that 'together', as long as horses have other's for compainionship near and in sight they are not being mistreat. The world is not perfect, but as long as you give them the best you can that is all any of us can ask for, human, horse or otherwise.

As to the horse in the pic. Shame on whoever that is, and for anyone that thinks this is right, fair, or not cruel. Also this is extremely poor horsemanship!!!!

My horses are all driven in light bits, (we prefere straight bits for driving, they work in the horse's mouth better than broken, easier on the horse--), but most bits can be used if used with light hands, my 5 year old stb stallion can be driven in races without handholds, has a super light mouth, and can be driven or riden in a hackamore, dispite being trained as a race horse.

As to cruelty in general, I can tell you after a lifetime in horses, riding, racing-- you can find cruelty anywhere, and yet where you will find money and or prestige you will find people willing to abuse horses, dogs, farm animals etc.

I can also assure you that stb racing (I am not as familiar with TB racing), you will find many of the cruelest people on the planet-- bar none.

take care Deb

Fizziologie · Yearling

If you feel the need to use a 'device' to work with your horse - pick one. This photo is crazy with the draw reins on the snaffle and martingale on the curb.. how can you effectively use both? I don't care how talented your hands are.

And no offense to any hunt seat riders.. but "Hunt Seat People" are a LONG ways from being angels in the area of 'alleged' abuse of horses. Every seat is EQUALLY guilty in their practices of using devices or artificial means on their horses to enhance their performances.

Also, Saddlebreds are not "tortured". If you don't understand or like the practices of a different discipline it is not okay to point a finger of misguided disgust at them. Saddlebreds are a separate breed from the Tennessee Walking Horses who have had some confirmed cases of "torture". These two have separate show associations.. different practices, trainer circles, etc.. AND only a select few TWH trainers and exhibitors were found guilty of soring - not the whole breed association. The positive action here would be to first find out how to influence those in your own seat to incorporate humane training practices, and have faith that there are people like you doing the same in their respective disciplines.

Such a negative, polarizing thread..

-- Edited by Fizziologie on Saturday 8th of December 2012 11:07:11 AM

Jackie Cochran · Advanced

Hi Fizziologie, I think you were referring to my post.

I was talking about hunt seat riders 40 or more years ago, at the tail end of the Forward Seat dominance, the hunt seat riders who were aiming to become better and more effective riders. I was also talking about the ASB training 40 or more years ago (lets see, set tails, loooong hooves, hoof weights, weighted shoes, bungee cord action devices, ginger in the rectum, pastern chains/balls, sometimes you saw the trainer yanking that 7" shank curb)--if it has gotten more humane this is absolutely wonderful. Back then the TWH show practices were always considered worse than the ASB show practices.

In today's shows you are completely correct, hunter, jumper and dressage can be just as or more abusive than top level ASB show riding. You are also correct that correct ASB training never gets as abusive as TWH Big Lick training.

I do not think that hunt seat, saddle seat, dressage, or Western training are inheritantly abusive if done correctly.

A finely riden ASB in the saddle seat tradition is a beautiful sight, light, responsive, flexed at the poll, with absolutely beautiful airy movement. In many ways I prefer good ASB saddle seat riding to modern competitive dressage because the horses move better and are ridden in a more classical manner. If I ever got into dressage I would be looking for an ASB that is not good enough for the ASB Three Gaited classes to use as a dressage mount, even though I am somewhat prejudiced toward Thoroughbreds and Arabians for regular riding.

Figarocubed · Advanced

Huh. Maybe things have changed in the ASB world, but I've seen the results of abuse firsthand.

I've seen horses who'd lost their tongues from having them tied down while in bitting rigs. I knew a horse who had terrible contracted heels from the ASB shoeing practices and sores on his backside from his tail brace. I've seen ASB's warmed up while blindfolded. The blindfold is whipped off just before the horse enters the ring. What's the point of THAT?

I know an Arab, formerly a Park Horse, who would clamp his tail down and cower if you tried to do anything with his tail. We believe he'd been gingered. The horse is 25 years old -- so this was not happening 40 years ago.

The latest scandal is the death of Humble, the hunter pony who died after an injection at a show. It's ghastly what some people will do to win awards. Ghastly. Back in the day, drugging a show hunter was unheard of. What happened?

Hock hobbles on WP horses. Nice. Tying their heads up overnight. Nice.

Correct riding in any tack is a joy to watch, but Nellie bar the door if there's a big award at stake. Ethics are more important than trophies. I'll ride with a trainer who has the horse's best interests in mind, not the winnings TYVM.

I'll be attending the World Dressage Masters in Florida. I'll let you know if I witness any abuse in the warmup ring. I doubt it will be anything like what I've seen horses go through in ASB, WP or TWH tack. Add H/J to that lot, too!