Why geld?

Barnmouser Ash · Grand Prix

Why geld?

Jackie Cochran · Advanced

If I remember properly the GREAT TB gelding Kelso (1960s USA) was gelded young because he would not gain weight. After gelding he gained weight normally and went on to be one of the USA's greatest racehorses, Horse of the Year 4 or 5 times. His greatness was not obvious at first on the track, then he got into gear. I think he won up to 2 miles. When he retired from the track he became his owner's fox hunting horse.

Most stallions lead a pretty miserable life in that they lack social contact with other horses. When the 2 year old colts start sparring in the pasture they are big and strong enough to cause real damage if things get out of hand. Only a very few stallions get to live out with their mares and foals.

Gelding is a great culling tool. There have been great performance horses that have a serious fault, just remember the TB colt Charismatic who broke down in the Belmont after winning the Ky. Derby & Preakness, he had one of the worst set of legs I've ever seen on a TB, worse than my first horse, severely knock and calf-kneed. He was saved for breeding, and I bet that they will be desperately trying to breed away from that fault some generations down the line. Great performance does not need great conformation, breeding a line of performance horses that goes on for 5-6 generations does.

There is also a severe lack of horsemen and horsewomen who are qualified to handle a stallion. You have to be good, very aware of the stallion all the time you are around him, and be brave and confident. False bravado does not work for long. You also have to be smarter that the stallion and constantly think ahead several steps all the time. Most people into horses are not prepared to be as good as you need to be to handle a stallion correctly and humanely.

MagsNMe · Advanced

Well said. I actually think there are many stallions that are not near good enough to stay as stallions. I believe it was Hilda Guerney who said she'd never regretted gelding any horse... good stallions are often GREAT geldings.

Figarocubed · Advanced

Funny Cide was a gelding. I think he had an undescended testicle anyway. Won the Kentucky Derby.

Clyde van Deusen, a son of Man 'O War, was a gelding and another winner of the Derby.

John Henry, another gelding with a long and storied racing career.

There are plenty of successful geldings, and plenty of reasons they are geldings, too. There are many stallions that OUGHT to be geldings. Irascible dispositions, less-than-perfect conformation, low sperm counts, to name only a rew good reasons for castration. Plus, geldings are such sweeties!

Can you imagine a world where most male horses are left intact, given the expertise (or lack thereof) of the average horse owner? It boggles the mind!

Barnmouser Ash · Grand Prix

Great responses!

Here's a thought... if great conformation isn't required to be a great performance horse, and you're breeding for performance, not looks... why geld? If it is something obviously detrimental to health such as weak bone/etc that couldn't be corrected by selective breeding, I understand. However, Phar Lap is said to have been a "perfectly average" horse in terms of conformation. Not excellent but not blinding to look at. So if a horse has some faults that won't cause permanent damage, why geld?

Jackie Cochran · Advanced

MOST stallions lead a pretty miserable life for a horse in this culture, they are often kept away from other horses except for breeding or teasing mares, or if they are riding horses, they cannot be turned out with mares (unless you want foals) or geldings (the stallions often savage geldings, it may not happen immediately though) or other stallions (fights).

The Barbs had big cavalry troops of only stallions, the knights of the Middle Ages rode stallions, the Spanish Riding School uses only stallions, but these horses usually are/were not roaming free. Stallions being allowed to roam free is usually limited to those few breeding farms that let the stallion live with a band of mares and foals. These stallions are LUCKY, so long the fencing is good (and it HAS TO be substantial), there is some shelter, and the stallion gets the supplementary feeding he may need. The next luckiest stallions get to live in a stallion barn where they can see each other while being too far apart to spar, especially if there is a roomy paddock right out the stall door so the stallion gets to run.

Some great performance horses have horrible faults in conformation that can weaken their descendents. Long upright pasterns can be a serious weakness for a horse doing high levels of performance. Over-at-the-knee is not as bad, but quite a few of these horses (not all) end up tripping. Calf-knees can, of course, lead to bad knee problems.

I think you are misunderstanding the method of breeding high performance horses for jumping, 3-Day or dressage. The ones that have the best conformation are competed as stallions--to prove that they can do the job. Then these performance proven stallions are put to stud, most of their male get are gelded and used as performance horses until they break down from their conformational faults (plus bad training, accidents, bad feeding, etc..) Racing breeds are more forgiving often, there only winning matters and if the horse gets crippled, well he is retired to stud to breed others with his speed and faults. Even there the best conformed colts have a better chance of being allowed to remain stallions than the other colts.

Queenrider · Advanced

Most stallions can not be be handled by the average horse person and the average boarding barn. Most boarding barns will not accept stallions due to their aggressive natures and potential for mayhem espeically if there are mares inheat around. If you have your own private barn then the option to keep a stallion is yours. Most stallions used for breeding should be gelded in my opinion! This is due to conformation/temperament problems. A good stallion will make an excellent gelding.

deb · Well Schooled

This is a hot topic with me. I am a stb trainer (race trainer), I also ride, and my horses are expected to do both ride and race.

I have over 20 years in race experience, and my husband has 40 years racing and has ridden horses since a child. So I think I am qualified to weigh in on this one.

They geld horses in racing for 1 of three reasons, first if they have to turn a lame horse out, and do not have pasture room for studs. The next reason is that they are afraid to work with a stud. The third and the number one reason is that as a rule if a horse wont try as a stud than you geld them and beat them, torture them or otherwise put enough terror into them that they will run. Horses are fear animals, they run better for fear than the 'love of it' no matter what anyone tells you. A young horse (stud or gelding) will try early on often, but after a short while a gelding come to the conclusion that running that hard is way too much-- try running yourself, you will soon find out it is one of the hardest things you will ever do... a gelding has no interest in the challenge of other horses, no passion left in it, and so you leave only fear as a motivation... a stud will run to challenge the other horses in the race (so will many mares)... they often run best up front, and will repel challengers... they are also tougher mentally, and have more pain resitance due to testosterone levels. They also have more mucsle mass, and are stronger and can stay at it longer than a gelding... I am suprised to hear that that horse gained weight as a gelding, that is not normal, usually is is the oposite.

I currently have three horses, one a horse I have had since a yearling will never be gelded, he does not like people-- all but my family... that is not due to his being a stud, his Uncle Gallo Blue Chip was a gelding for two reasons, one he was mean-- he got gelded, and stayed mean-- the second reason was he would not pass a horse, as a stud you could not beat him with a whip, once gelded they beat the ever living life out of him, he stayed mean off the track, but was so fearful of the treatment he went on to race, he was for many years the richest horse in stb. racing. When he was older, at the end of his carreer, when he would simply not go for the beatings (yes it does wear off-- you can only terrorize something for so long before it does not work) the people working with him used to put a chain in his mouth and reef and brutilize his mouth and beat him around the head and face, when challeneged by people around they said, "He didn't make it for me." money being what he had made-- over 4 million dollars-- and when he was done since he had no more worth they didn't even keep him themselves, they sent him off to a farm for people to stare at and made him an side road attraction... I guess 4 million wasn't enough money to keep him in his own barn... and as a gelding (well bred but hard to handle, with NO conformation faults-- his mother was ranked number 2 stb broodmare in the world), he is worthless in the eyes of people.

When he geld them and then beat them you make them a runaway, you make a horse loose confidence in themselves... also if you have a puller, you geld them and you make them worse, or at that point also a runaway-- a stud will wait for the other horses, a gelding will not, he has no interest in the other horses, and has only the fear of the person left.

You do not need to make a stud into a recluse that is bad with horses... I have had many stb studs over the years (also 1/4 horse studs, and a few tb. studs) and they were all well adjusted horses that did not scream and yell, a mare, gelding or another stud can nuzzle Che, chew on him, and he will stand with and beside other horses in very close quarters... he can reach the other horses in my barn, and it is they that will grab at him, bite or kick (they are geldings and have jelouse streaks)... he like having a gelding in the barn, no one knows he is a stud by his behavour... we have socialized him since we got him with other horses. People are another issue, but his brothers are geldings, and they all have no tollerance with people, his sisters were the same, as is his dam... his sire took two people to walk him where ever he went... so when you look to why a stud is rough, the handeling would be my answer not that he is a stud... and if you cant handle them than you shouldn't have them.

It is my opionion that gelding a horse takes away they heart of the horse, you are left with a shell... if that is what you want than be my guest. Yes many go on to make money, but people geld these horses due to their own failure, not the fault of the horse... what is 'easier' is not always better... or right... but who said life was right... or fair... when I look into Che's eyes I see the heart of a champion, I see courage and a belief that he is the master of his own self... when I look into Steels eyes, or Tattoo's I see just a shell, 'cute', fearful, ready to run away, or in the case of horses I have had in the past, too dead inside to even runaway... yes a gelding will do what you want, but that is becuase he only is a shell and you have forever changed him into something that he was not born to be... you can make him into your image of what you want, he can go on to make money, he can compete, but he will never do it becuase he wants to, or becuase he beleives in himself... like a man that has ben gelded, he is no longer the same.

Do as you see fit, people always do, tell yourself that you are doing the right thing, make up all the excuses you want, but the horse would not choose to be gelded given the choice... when you geld a horse you take something away from him that can never be put back... his hear and soul and courage.

deb · Well Schooled

sorry that should have been heart... sorry also for the bad spelling... deb

Barnmouser Ash · Grand Prix

Deb, your insight is spectacular! I was looking for some answers from within the industry, and I really appreciate your reply. It makes sense to me what you say about people gelding for their own failure rather than the horse's failure. Afterall, it isn't the horse's responsibility to provide itself with adequate fencing, or to know that it is bad etiquette to try to breed mares when they are on the other side of the fence. A horse is much more than "just an animal" in my opinion; however, they do still have very strong animal instincts - they aren't human. No matter how much we like to transfer our human feelings and emotions onto them, they are horses in the end, not people.

I wish more folks who are in the industry of breeding horses would take the time to realize that they have a 50/50 chance of getting a stallion, and that if that is the case, they need to be prepared to handle a stallion for some 25 years (unless a buyer has been lined up before the birth). If they are not prepared, they need to move on from their dream of being a breeder... in my opinion ;)

Awesome post, Deb. Thank you!

MagsNMe · Advanced

I cannot speak to the racing industry, and I won't try. As for the sport horse industry, we do geld for the reasons noted previously, and I, for one, who bred my current gelding, don't regret doing it, and will not justify my decision for a second.

Barnmouser Ash · Grand Prix

Mags - Do you mean you don't regret breeding him, or gelding him? :)

MagsNMe · Advanced

I regret neither.

Barnmouser Ash · Grand Prix

Jackie - I am not sure I agree that so many people are ill-equipped. Even if they are, it seems far better to take the time to train the people rather than cutting a perfectly good stallion. If a person doesn't have the facilities for a stallion, in my opinion, they should not buy him, or breed their mare expecting to just geld a colt if that is the result.

Horses are not neighborhood dogs and cats that just sneak out at night and get pregnant. With proper facilities (see: not allowing stallions to run with mares who are not to be bred, or near them, if there is a chance of a fence being broken, etc), and especially proper training and handling from the start, I see no reason a horse must be gelded simply for the owner's convenience.

One could argue that grumpy old mares would be better off spayed - I disagree. We should not be altering the hormonal and physical states of animals simply because we cannot handle them. If they are a danger to themselves or others, that is different. However, if they are dangerous because we allow them to become that way, it isn't the horse's fault.

Morality/ethics aside and to stay on topic: my question was really about performance horses, mainly racehorses. For practical reasons in a "backyard farm" I can "understand" gelding; in a huge operation where the horse isn't even at it's home stable for 90% of the year, I have trouble seeing the need for gelding aside from medical issues.

-- Edited by Barnmouser Ash on Monday 11th of March 2013 10:36:39 AM

Barnmouser Ash · Grand Prix

What perfect timing! I just saw this article on Twitter:

http://horsetalk.co.nz/2013/03/11/potential-for-breeding-stallions-kept-together/#.UT3s4Iy9KSM

Thoughts?

-- Edited by Barnmouser Ash on Monday 11th of March 2013 10:45:50 AM

Jackie Cochran · Advanced

I understand what you are saying Deb, but this society just is not set up for most horsepeople having stallions.
Most other cultures aren't either.
I do like your proposition that breeders be prepared to keep their colts (if they don't sell, I presume) as stallions for the rest of their lives.
My first horse was gelded three weeks before I got him as a 5 year old. I never felt that his fire, determination, sense of justice, or soul were affected, Hat Tricks was not a shell of a horse, he was a teacher and mentor to both humans and other horses. He was a hot blood (Anglo-Arab) with a decent turn of speed when he wanted to go. Hat Tricks's soul radiated out from him in a gentle, beneficient glow, people terrified of horses would just sort of melt in front of Hat Tricks and end up proclaiming his benelovence. He did not stand for injustice long, yes he would have corrected me earlier if he were a stallion, but he corrected me before there was the danger of something becoming a habit. Yet I could put a terrified beginner on him and Hat Tricks would ignore the discomfort and gently guide them on their road of learning to ride, and when he thought the rider was capable of the next step he would gently introduce it himself. Hat Tricks taught me that yes, animals DO have souls and are creatures worth of respect in their own right.
I got to know a stallion who probably was Hat Tricks's great uncle, a pure Davenport Arabian stallion named Oberon. and I even got to ride him bareback briefly one day. The same benevolent viewpoint towards people, and the same delicacy of expression (well, yes, Oberon was a little bit more insistent.) I never felt, between the type of horse of Hat Tricks the gelding, or Oberon, the closely related stallion, that I lost that much by Hat Tricks being a gelding. I had one of Oberon's colts a few years before he died, and there was, even in a colt, that same cooperative attitude. I never felt like I had to geld and I did not geld Oberon's son before he died on me, and I did all the training to saddle myself with very little help from anyone else.
Is it easier to "kill" the soul of a gelding? Maybe. It sure is easier to send it into deep hiding where it never sees the light of day again.
But whichever way one looks at it the vast, vast majority of people who handle horses ARE NOT QUALIFIED to handle a stallion, and many of the ones who do think they are qualified are being sheparded by a benevolent stallion.

Jackie Cochran · Advanced

I saw the article. I remember reading long ago that the Berber people, who rode mainly stallions for war, did herd their stallions together when they were not being ridden. One thing the article noted was that these stallions that were turned out together ALREADY KNEW ONE ANOTHER. They worked with the other stallions and they were stalled next to each other. I imagine that there would have been more fireworks if stallions that had never met were thrown out together.

As for performance horses not just the riders have to be able to handle stallions, the grooms must be competent too. It is SO EASY to get scared when a stallion starts acting up and stallions tend not to respect people who are not brave. Many stallions will accept handling from a scared human who shows bravery (I've been there), but stallions are more apt to keep on testing the human to make sure the person is truly brave and therefore worthy of respect. Many stallions were ruined totally by grooms who were scared of them long before cars swept all the horses off the road, all the old-time "horse whispers" ran into these unfortunate animals back in the time of Rarey etc..

When I started falling in love with horses long ago I investigated the breeds. The MAIN thing that got me into the Arab breed was that was the only breed that allowed women and children to show stallions (this was back in the early 1960's, women were not considered capable of handling even the best tempered stallions.) Nowadays plenty of women handle stallions of all breeds, this is a HUGE change from 50 years ago. Maybe our culture will undergo another huge change and allow these horsies to remain entire but I am not holding my breath. I've seen too many horses taking care of their riders as if the rider was a total retard in the mental department because it was obvious that the only being with brains was the supposedly dumb animal. Humans who operate on a lower mental plane than the horse usually have no business working with a stallion (as always there are exceptions.)

And after a performance career--well, if all male performance horses are stallions only the best conformed or most talented stallions will end up in serious breeding programs. In the USA there is no room for stallions in most riding programs, most boarding stables are not set up to deal with stallions, most people do not have great stallion-proof facilities, and I'm afraid most of the ex-performance stallions would end up as meat. Geldings have a better chance of finding some type of home and even geldings and mares have troubles finding good homes in todays economic climate. Stallion? Probably no bids except from the meat buyers for immediate slaughter when the slaughter plants re-open.

Barnmouser Ash · Grand Prix

So why breed if the world is so afraid and ill-equipped to handle stallions?

I can think of lots of folks who are considered horse people who have atrocious horsemanship skills and are afraid of their horses, even if they do not outrightly admit it.

I mean this generally, not to you specifically, Jackie: Most of these answers seem like poor excuses to put a band-aid on a cut instead of taking away the knife, if you get my drift.

Jackie Cochran · Advanced

We, as the American people at least, have gotten a LOT braver and more educated about stallions during my lifetime. When I started most men WOULD NOT LET WOMEN HANDLE STALLIONS. Since this was the time that riding switched from being mainly a male profession/sport to an activity with mostly female participants most women and children had no exposure to stallions, unless they were lucky and had breeders or trainers as parents.
Many farms would not let anyone not a paying customer to personally greet a stallion, they though it was too dangerous. This was where the Arab stallions came in for me, I have been refused only one time when I asked if it was safe for me to go into an Arabian stallion's stall. One of my criteria as to whether I considered a stallion suitable for breeding was if I felt safe enough to kiss him on his muzzle (like Oberon above!)
Now, decades later, Americans who were not raised by breeders or trainers, have learned that properly raised and trained stallions are not the man killers of legend. Many more people dare to own and handle a stallion now if they have land, and many successfully raise a stallion for riding or breeding. This is very good, the only way stallions will get accepted in regular society is when people learn that they rarely kill humans. I personally am of the school that you cannot consider yourself a finished horseman until you know how to handle all three sexes of horse, stallion, mare, and geldings. This is one of the reasons why I went ahead and got weanling colts prepared to keep them entire so long as I could successfully work them. Since I have MS I am no longer qualified to handle a stallion--unless there is no one else around with stallion experience, so in an emergency I would step in, mainly because the horse would feel safer with me and be less likely to act up. In fact one of the reasons I like the places where I ride is that both ladies have stallion experience so I would not have to do anything if a loose stallion magically appeared one day.
I totally agree with the many experienced horsemen who have written that there is nothing better as a riding horse than a stallion. If you properly train, properly handle, and ride a stallion decently, a stallion is on your side much more than a gelding or mare who tend to have their own agendas (so long as the stallion has been trained around mares who go into heat and taught proper manners.) If I did not have MS I would be riding a stallion now, since I can keep one on my land. Stallions have courage, enterprise, boldness, a certain fearlessness often, and they are often safer to be around than say, mishandled mares who tend to be a bit too ready with their hind feet. If only my MS had not made me weak, trembly, and horribly unsteady on my feet, I cannot handle a stallion on my own! As it is, if a Arabian stallion owner, after I tell them the sheer extent of my many disabilities, invites me to climb aboard her hunk of a stallion I will cheerfully do so, just to ride a stallion again.
Stallions need brave people. Stallions need consistent people. Stallions have a VERY strong sense of justice and are less forgiving of ignorant abuse, they know when they don't deserve to be punished, while at the same time they do not tend to become resentful of sometimes sharp punishment for crossing the boundaries of good behavior (after all mares discipline stallions with double barrel kicks.) It really helps to be physically competent, able to stand steady, strong enough to hang onto the lead rope the one time he decides to explore that mare, and able to exude an aura of physical ability, knowledge and skill. There is hope, more Americans (and Canadians I am sure!) now know that yes, they can successfully handle, work and ride a stallion of their own and are prepared to spend the money on proper infrastructure. Then they too can learn what has been known for thousands of years, if you are not riding an Arabian mare a stallion is the best riding and driving horse around.