How would you define natural horsemanship?

Janet B · Yearling

How would you define natural horsemanship?

Katherine F · Well Schooled

I think Natural Horsemanship is a marketing tool and various trainers throw the term around to get followers. How can they say one way of training is more natural than another? It's the same thing with horse whisperers. That term has lost its meaning in my mind.

spirithorse · Advanced

No such thing as natural horsemanship.
When the term was applied to Tom Hunt and the Dorrance brothers because of the quiet way they worked with horses.

The term is a gimmick to market old training methods under a new banner....oh, and to sell, sell, sell.

kschmittendorf · Well Schooled

I tend to agree with the "gimmick" reply. As a new owner (just bought my first horse a year ago at age 45) I have done quite a bit of research and gone to a few clinics. There is really nothing "mysterious" with horse training. It's common sense. They all start out the same, trained to accept a saddle, bridle and rider and then moved on to whatever specific "horse sport" they may be intended for. It could be dressage, eventing, reining..so many disciplines! But just like raising children or training any other animal the keys are consistency and patience. Cruelty and fear will not make a willing mount. The best animal trainer that I have ever watched is Cesar Milan. He works with dogs but if you watch his methods, he never punishes the animal for what we call "bad behaviour". Horses have a herd mentality and naturally follow a leader. You need to gain their respect and trust and that is accomplished by working with them on the ground and under saddle. Whatever "method" you choose, it needs to suit your personality, abilities and also your horses. I prefer to use some of Clinton Anderson's techniques and mix that with a few other things I have seen. It works for my horse and myself. No one person has all of the answers and horses don't come with a handbook! Just like children! The biggest mistake that I have seen is that people put human emotions on an animal and think they feel the same as we do. They don't. Yes I know they express fear and playfullness but they also live in the "now". I would like to believe that my horse "loves" me but I know he sees me as his human leader and food source. We have bonded in the sense that he trusts me but I don't believe for a minute that if threatened he would not bolt for the hills and leave me in the dust! They are prey animals. Use your own judgement and take what you feel is best for yourself and your horse and use that. If it doesn't work, keep trying! Find something else! Trust yourself!

Ellen Ofstad · Foal

What is the difference between "human emotions" and "animal emotions"?
A lot of people would agree that there IS a difference, but what is it?
What kind of emotions are horses capable of, and what aren't they capable of?
Ellen

sally forth · Yearling

The best "natural" practitioners IMO don't use the term. They just call themselves trainers. They also don't do a lot of marketing or selling. As soon as someone comes out with multiple books and products then the marketing - the money machine - takes over and horsemanship goes out the window. How can you adapt and change if you've already written that what you did last year is the "best thing"? Every real horseman keeps on learning and refining what they do. They never deny that they might have gotten something wrong before or that they have learned a better way.
I don't know many non-commercial American trainers but I like what I've heard about Harry Whitney. As for the more accessible Canadians, Chris Irwin and Josh Nichol are both inspiring and effective. It has nothing to do with "method" per se. Or even the trainer's personality. Many good animal trainers suck with human communication.

Both Chris and Josh make you think differently about working with horses. Its about considering the horse's mental health first, about taking the route that best enhances your relationship and about fixing/releasing/acknowleging our own issues before we try to address a horse's. Its about forgetting ego and what so-and-so at the barn said and just training *that* particular animal. IOW get the basics solid before you start adding the higher levels of training that are sport specific.

kschmittendorf · Well Schooled

Human emotions encompass more that just "re-active" emotions. Humans are capable of regret, empathy, compassion and many more. Animals base reactions on instinct and learned behaviours. They don't base behaviour on what they "felt" yesterday. They base it on what they learned from that experience. So for example if I walk up to my horse and whack him in the head today for no reason, he might be wary of me tommorow because of the experience he had. Not because he harbors any anger or remorse or anything else. He comes to me when I call because he has experienced good things..treats, grooming..not because he "loves" me. Animals cannot reason and they only live in the here and now. They cannot regret past actions or plan to behave in a certain way in the future to a particular situation. My horse recently spooked at a deer and I ended up dumped on the ground with a broken ankle. He ran off to the herd and started eating. He did not come back and see if I was ok or behave as if he and done anything wrong. It was instinctual for him to react to a percieved threat and run like heck! Whether I was on board or not. Now he will probably have some memory of that event if we go back to that area of the field and be a little wary but he won't know why. My concern is for those individuals that think they have some sort of deep emotional connection with their horse and that "their" horse would never hurt them. Well, they will. Maybe not intentionally but they have no idea how fragile humans are and cannot control their own reactions to the environment or circumstances they are in. It is foolish to think that a prey animal with millions of years of instinct in them has evolved enough to over ride those instincts because they have a "bond" with a human. That is the romantic notion that humans have, not horses.

sally forth · Yearling

Nearly all behaviourists attribute basic emotions to animals without qualification. Fear, joy, relief, anger, frustration. It is less clear if "higher emotions" can be experienced by animals and whether they feel them in the same way we do. There are studies showing dogs can and chimps can feel envy, but nothing else has been explored as yet that I am aware of.
I do know that some individual animals can be generous, tolerant, anxious, worried, affectionate but what exactly is going on inside their heads - who really knows?

Why do you ask?

Barbara F · Grand Prix

Ellen Ofstad wrote:

What is the difference between "human emotions" and "animal emotions"?
A lot of people would agree that there IS a difference, but what is it?
What kind of emotions are horses capable of, and what aren't they capable of?
Ellen

Ellen, a lot of people would say that horses don't have emotions at all (just instincts) but I would certainly disagree. I have witnessed happiness, anger, fear, contentment, stubborness, grief, just as I have in people. I think the difference is that we humans have a long way to go in recognizing and interpreting the emotions that animals have.

Oh, a quick comment about instinct vs the bond, as mentioned above - I do wonder how much our "bond" with our horses is really just us bonding to them.

-- Edited by Barbara F on Tuesday 19th of October 2010 04:49:47 PM

Geoffrey Pannell · Well Schooled

The Natural Training Method (as described by Anthony Paalman in his book Training Showjumpers) has evolved from the principles of the famous European cavalry schools. The main characteristic of the Natural Training Method is the easy and relaxed manner in which the horse co-operates with the riders demands. The horse is progressively taught to work without using unnecessary energy and to develop his athletic ability to the utmost degree, the purpose being to encourage the horse to use his own initiative within limits determined by the rider. The horse will become so eager to please , and will gain so much self-confidence, that in a difficult situation he will quickly make the right decision, without any aid from the rider .
I do agree with others that the term Natural Horsemanship has been hijacked by very clever commercial marketing, and has turned into a bit of a free for all for a lot of johnny come-latelys . They claim to train naturally, but as soon as something doesn't go their way, impatient aggressive methods take over.

DressageLeggy · Yearling

I always thought Lady Godiva was the original "Natural Horsemanship" practitioner??

Ellen Ofstad · Foal

Why I ask about emotions and more questions

sally forth · Yearling

RE: How would you define natural horsemanship?

Nikki Salo · Grand Prix

DressageLeggy wrote:

I always thought Lady Godiva was the original "Natural Horsemanship" practitioner??

And she also had a way with abolishing taxes! biggrin

Hint_Of_Magic · Yearling

I've come to find that a lot of the Natural Horsemanship I have seen has disappointed me to no ends. Something that supposedly was only made with the thought in mind of horses. Yes, it would have to be a large part of why you do what you do, but NH has become such a money grab.

Now in "order to do it properly" for some NH trainers is to purchase their equipment. Then all of the clinics and whatever else you can get to learn how to properly do such and such method. Many of the small videos I've watched on NH, mostly of the Parellis, has made me wonder what makes it so better than other training methods. Especially that incident with Catwalk. After seeing these it left me with a bad taste in my mouth.
However, that doesn't mean that not every method isn't good. I'm sure some work well for horse and rider. I'm always open to new ideas of what to do, I've just found many famous NH trainers have disappointed me.
My definition of NH would be to work the horse by using their behaviours in the wild to get them to do what you're asking. Sort of like what Monty Roberts has accomplished in his work.

Just my opinion though! smile

spirithorse · Advanced

emotions

shaiarabs · Well Schooled

RE: How would you define natural horsemanship?

Horse-hearted · Advanced

I agree, horsemanship is horsemanship. I love the IDEAS of natural horsemanship, but not the commercial meaning that it has taken on.

sedonasilver · Advanced

There is nothing natural about interacting with a horse, from the horses perspective.

Horse are meant to stand in big open pastures and graze all day and be horses with other horses.

But, because we love these beautiful animals so much, we have tamed them and trained and fortunately the horse doesnt seem to mind to much, and is very forgiving.

And because we expect them to do our bidding, the most we can do is try to 'speak horse' because they sure as hell cant 'speak human'.

And this is what we term as 'natural horsemanship'. Its human nature to capitalise on everything, we all do it because money makes the world go round.

If 'natural horsemanship' such as parelli had been my idea, and I thought i was helping people treat and understand horses better, I sure as hell would have cashed in!

Horse-hearted · Advanced

I would argue that horses can 'speak human' in the wya of body language, not verbal cues, better then most humans. My horse knows things about me that I am not even aware I am telling him, where as with most people it could be right in there face and they don't take a hint!
I am also of the mystical belief that horses and people are drawn together and that horses and humans are social creatures; drawn to relationships and groups, despite species differences.

I agree, I don't blame anyone for making money doing what they love with horses...and if it spreads the word and helps people, so much the better!

spirithorse · Advanced

Horses first speak telepathically, just like humans. The problem is that we intelligent humans, the supreme species, have forgotten how.

Roka · Well Schooled

spirithorse wrote:

Horses first speak telepathically, just like humans. The problem is that we intelligent humans, the supreme species, have forgotten how.

Bravo, spirithorse! smile

I totally agree with you and once you unlock that forgotten ability a whole new world opens up!

Horse-hearted · Advanced

How supreme are we? My horses have a better idea of what's going on...

spirithorse · Advanced

Humans are not supreme, rather mundane actually

SoftTouchTraining · Well Schooled

Love the "Lady Godiva" comment biggrin

I think the problem we've run into when discussing emotions in horses is that some people want to humanize them. Do I think that horses have emotions, oh yes they do and they show them. Their emotions are of a more basic instinct. Their emotions are of the equine world and you cannot make them human. People cannot rationalize with them as you can with another human, which means that when working with them you have to go to their level.

spirithorse · Advanced

SoftTouchTraining wrote:

People cannot rationalize with them as you can with another human, which means that when working with them you have to go to their level.

That is so wrong. Horses are smarter than we humans give them credit for. The problem is that they do not have the means to contradict our subjugation of them, so they retreat in the state of learned helplessness, unless we change how we communicate with and take care of them.

SoftTouchTraining · Well Schooled

Spirithorse - I'm not saying that they aren't smart, I'm saying that we need to listen to them on their terms, not like we listen to a person. Since they can't turn and say "hey this is what's up", you have to listen to their body language and treat them like other horses treat them, because that is what they understand best and it makes life easier and less frustrating for them. You can so them what is right what is good ect, but you can't hold conversations just like we do here. You have to adjust your language and thinking so that both you and your horse are communicating on the same level. It's like a chemist talking to the average joe, break it down and make it more understandable on our level when explaining. Then there is more of an understanding between the two instead of a big language barrier.

spirithorse · Advanced

Good explanation of what you said.......
Remember telepathy is the first mode of communication..................

Roka · Well Schooled

I totally agree with spirithorse here, but that is easy for me to do since I have unlocked my spiritual ability to telepathically speak to animals. I know for most people that seems far out - but really, everyone has the potential of that gift. Horses can, and do, speak to us telepathically but they get frustrated because we don't get it and the main feeling I get first off from animals I talk to, is relief that someone finally understands. I know it might sound weird but it is just the truth for me.

I have trained several animal communicators and healers, and not all communicate in the same way - some get words, some get pictures (and that is harder cos you have to interpret them correctly) and some just get emotions. Some (like me) get all of that. It is very individual how an abilility like telepathy and intuition unfolds but believe me - it is awesome to be a part of!