Sire or Dam, which is more important to you?

Laura F · Well Schooled

Sire or Dam, which is more important to you?

Nikki Salo · Grand Prix

Hi Laura,

From a purely riding horse stand point, I'd consider the horse more than the lines. But from a breeding stand point, I would put my money on quality mares. When I took Equine Genetics and Growth & Development, there was an emphasis on the maternal (female) lineage in outstanding offspring. As more research is going on into Mitochondrial DNA (genes passed on through the mother of any species), it is becoming apparent that more of the foal's attributes (or not so good attributes) are passed on from the mare. As a few examples, the speed factor and large heart gene are reliably showing up through the X chromosome. To me, having amazing mares is the key to a successful breeding program, great stallions are hard to come by, but amazing mares are even harder to come by. If I were considering mares for a breeding program, I'd look for mares that have already produced more than one outstanding offspring.

MagsNMe · Advanced

The thing is, it's harder to analyze the mare, as they automatically have fewer offspring than the stallion. A good stallion line is one that can actually pass on the traits you want. This can be the issue with a stallion who is competitively successful, that's great, but can he pass it on?

The two current big name stallions that cost an arm and a leg, Hickstead and Totilas, how many offspring are on the ground and are they great? We don't know.

If I'm buying a young horse, not under saddle, I want to see lots from that stallion on a number of mares, that can tell me how likely I am to get what I want. Once a horse is going, I would suggest that breeding is much less relevant than the horse itself.

Nikki Salo · Grand Prix

MagsNMe, you bring up something that my boyfriend and I were talking about when it came to the sale of Totilas. It was a smart business move on Cee Visser's part to sell the stallion before his offspring start hitting the show ring, he may be a brilliant riding horse, but he may be a dud in the breeding shed. I am pretty sure he has some offspring on the ground already (in an interview with Edward Gal he mentioned they were breeding the stallion), but I could be wrong. Anyways, currently he is worth more as a breeding stallion then he is as a riding horse, and if his offspring can't perform (not saying they can't, this is just the chance you take), then his value would decline unfortunately.

dbliron · Advanced

Right on, Mags!

There have been many stallions who were/are amazing in their own right, but who don't pass on those traits particularly well (Secretariat, anyone?).

I use the very best mare(s) I can, and then look for stallions who consistently produce the characteristics I want. Too many people think the stallion's everything, and look only at gaits, rather than character, balance, trainability and consistency of the offspring.

I remember going to the KWPN Stallion Show at s'Hertogenbosch, and learning tons about what horses really produced, and which horses didn't. I'd never understood until then why the Germans were so high on Donnerhall, as he was an ugly horse with correct but certainly not extravagant gaits. I saw 20 of his young stallions presented at that show, and every one of them was a real athlete, with super gaits, good jumping style, and steady brains. The stallion improved himself with EVERY horse, regardless of the mares, and that's the type of stallion I've learned to look for.

MagsNMe · Advanced

The stallion of my two mares stamps every offspring with his amazing topline and jump, he's got great heritability, and I know it's no coincidence that he's a C line Holsteiner. The breeder used him to improve his mare base, and now he's breeding 'name' stallions to them, with good results.

Its interesting, as I do tend to put a great deal of stock in the stallion. But, I'm looking at Warmbloods, and, lets face it, there's a couple hundred years of predictibility bred into them. And, mares have so few offspring, in reality, it's hard to evaulate them. That being said, let's look at Poesie, she's a Brentano II daughter, dam of 4 approved stallions by Sandro Hit and dam of the inimitable Poetin, also by Sandro Hit (sold at PSI for 2.5M Euro). This is one powerhouse mare. But, how many great mares can you name?

I really believe as a buyer, lines only matter until the horse is under saddle. They'll sell your young stock. As a going horse, if it's winning the 1.6m and it's sire is Bullwinkle, I doubt I'd care...

Dalriada · Yearling

Very true stallions have more offspring than mares over the course of a lifetime so you can get an idea of the temperament of the foal based on generalizations of the stallions get. The mare spends more time with the foal from birth to weaning and this learned behaviour can form the temperament of the foal as well.

When breeding the mare will play an important factor - if there are personality quirks that are not learned or human created I will think twice about breeding her. I also mate her with a sire that will compliment her. You need also to look at the faults of both sire and dam and see if you can live with the minuses from both horses IF they should be bred true into expression. Would you be fine with a sway-backed, nasty tempered individual or a crooked legged not so pretty horse? Then why breed in the hopes that those traits will be eliminated. Some traits can be ameliorated but it takes many generations to eliminate the bad traits.

Personally if I am buying a horse, I look at both sides of the equation, but more often I will look at the unique individual as offspring CAN be totally different than either of the parents.

spirithorse · Advanced

The stallion....at least that has been my experience with TB's

sedonasilver · Advanced

Dalriada wrote:

The mare spends more time with the foal from birth to weaning and this learned behaviour can form the temperament of the foal as well.

Thank goodness Lorenzo didnt take after his dam, temperment wise.

This very fact almost stopped me from buying my boy, however time has proved that its not the case all the time. I have seen it happen both ways, many times.

I would definately agree that mare and stallion are equally important, its lines and history that make a good quality horse.

SoftTouchTraining · Well Schooled

For me I want to see what both the mare and stallion have done, both performance wise and breeding wise. I know some crosses just don't work. But I do tend to look at the mare more closely because she raises the foal. It brings us to the issue of nature or nurture, which is more prevalent or more important.

Horse-hearted · Advanced

Whoa- this got deep. So nature vs. nurture? Determinalism vs. Free will? Is this all just a dream? AHHHH

Tamarack · Yearling

As a breeder, I know that both sire and dam are equally important - but as has already been said - because the stallion has many more offspring than a mare will, it is easier to track the success of the stallion's offspring.
Is the stallion prepotent for passing on certain characteristics - in conformation, movment, athleticism, jumping ability, temperament?

When you see the offspring of a stallion, out of a wide variety of mares, out performing successfully this gives you a good idea of that stallion's ability to sire performance horses.
If you are a buyer, it also gives you the opportunity to see a number of offspring, - and also to determine if they are doing well in the discipline you take part in.

One thing to be aware of: if a stallion has offspring of performance age - ie over the age of 6 - and pretty well none of them are out showing, that should set up a red flag for you.

If not, why not?