Correct Dressage

spirithorse · Advanced

Correct Dressage

Barbara F · Grand Prix

Hi "S",

I'm not sure, are you asking our opinions about the images in the link, about modern dressage in general, or about amateurs riding one way or the other? Did you think from the photos that Peters was not teaching correctness in his clinic?

Sorry, I'm just not sure what your questions are.

-- Edited by Barbara F on Monday 8th of November 2010 09:23:04 AM

spirithorse · Advanced

I believe it is totally incorrect of any trainer and/or clinician to 'allow' the riders to have their horses in the incorrect frame. Simply because it is encouraging incorrect schooling which results in the incorrect presentations at test.

The rider should NEVER place the horse in this frame. If the horse does it then the rider must correct the position.

Mr. Peters and other big name riders, have many images of them riding where the head/neck carriage is incorrect and this results in amies following the presentation by a role model. Thus therein lays the destruction of the purity contained within the rules.

Barbara F · Grand Prix

I know we've gone and forth a bit on this before, but I feel it is really relevant:

We all should have our horses in the correct frame and be riding correctly and fixing problems, but it's hard to do and no one has mistake-free rides, no matter how hard we try.

So I guess the point I'm making is that the majority of amateur riders are out there doing their best, but they (we) just aren't good enough riders to have things correct all the time or to be able to fix things all the times. That takes really exceptional riding ability that most amateurs (and lots of pros) don't possess, as much as we all strive to ride really well.

I also think that the vast majority of riders are not connected to the biggies in the horse world and are influenced by their local trainers, so perhaps that's where the hole is (if you think there is one).

I think this crosses all disciplines, by the way, and goes far beyond correct position, but to the heart of horsemanship.

Jackie Cochran · Advanced

I think that there are severe differences in philosophy here.
Long, long ago I was taught that it was incorrect to place a horse in a "frame".
I was told that if I rode correctly that the horse would put itself into the best frame for each movement, which would not stay static but change somewhat as the horse moved.
The reason given for riding this way was that if you "put your horse in frame" that the next step would be that the horse would go behind the bit (ie. false collection).
Nowadays the "correct frame" seems to be worshipped, and due to this most of the pictures of dressage horses I've seen recently are behind the bit.
Personally I've told both ladies I ride under to GET AFTER ME each and every time my horse goes behind the bit (the face behind vertical) because it is a sure sign that my hands are too harsh and I need to lighten up my contact until the horse consents to move properly.
If I cannot ride in collection properly (not behind the bit) I do not think that I have any business asking for collection. But that is my personal opinion and it only affects my behavior on horseback.

SoftTouchTraining · Well Schooled

I agree with you guys. If the horse is schooling the incorrect frame they are developing the muscles incorrectly. One thing that has become controversially popular, use popular lightly, is rolecur. I hate rolecur, it's basically abusive to ride a horse like that. Just do the work properly, even if it takes a bit longer for them to learn and hold the frame, but it is the proper way. When teaching I think it is good if you can show them what an improper frame is and how to correct it and work towards the proper frame, but a coach needs to correct them when they are constantly riding their horse in the wrong frame. Better to ride them in no frame at all if you are going to only do it wrong.

spirithorse · Advanced

The images presented were NOT the horse placing its self incorrectly, it is the riders doing so.

So it is the place of the instructor/clinician to teach the rider not to place these constraints and restrictions upon the horse.

The correct frame [i.e. the FEI rules] is the natural carriage the horse places its head and neck when showing off and/or playing games.

So we should strive for this simply because it allows the horse the use of all of its muscle structure to be used correctly.

Barbara F · Grand Prix

Hi Jackie,

I do ride my horse in a frame (as I ride, train and compete in dressage he has to work in a correct, consistent frame), but I don't force him into the frame, the exercises and correct riding and training do that for me.

I think a lot of it comes down to the instructor and their training philosophy. Thank goodness I am working with someone who is not only an excellent rider and trainer, but she is also very petite like me, so there is no way she's ever going down the road of forcing a horse to do anything.

As for people who inadvertently ride their horse behind the vertical - it happens sometimes, just like allowing the horse to be way above the bit, crooked, etc. happens. None of us is a perfect rider and our mistakes show up in the way the horse goes.

I do believe in researching and finding a great instructor to help you. There are lots of "hacks" out there!

Jackie Cochran · Advanced

I have been thinking a lot about classical versus modern competition dressage.
Then it hit me, classical dressage started out with Iberian horses (lots of Barb blood), then changed over to the TB and the TB crosses, with frequent Arabian crosses. All these hot-blood breeds are mainly developed for speed especially at the gallop--with low, sweeping efficient movement.
Modern competition dressage is more based on the trotting blood, with many warmbloods starting off as carriage horses crossed with hot bloods to bring in riding qualities. The carriage horses were bred for the trot, especially the high action trot. I have noticed throughout horse history that crossing a mainly trotting line with the TB does not always diminish the high action (Hackneys, ASB, Standardbreds), and gives the trotting horses the endurance necessary to travel with the less efficient high movement for longer. I remember reading Podhajsky about how hard it was for the carriage horse Lippizaner's high action at the trot to score well in the dressage tests against the TB horses. While I have no doubt that it is quite possible to train a trotting bred horse to classical dressage (they do it with the Lippizaners), I have a question if the high actioned super springy WB trot is as easy to sit to as the low, sweeping hot-blood trot or the less springy high-actioned Lippizaner trot, thus causing different ways of training for dressage competition (BTV, rollkur.)
Maybe we need different dressage classes for the galloping based breeds, where riders could practice classical dressage and let the present day competitions continue for the high trotting horses. Let the popular high-actioned trot WB competitions help pay for the preservation of classical dressage for the hotter blooded horses with lower action.
Just an idea.