Correct head carriage

spirithorse · Advanced

Correct head carriage

Barbara F · Grand Prix

Spirithorse, do you have that photo in a full body shot? It would be worthwhile to see.
Lovely looking horse, by the way.

Laura F · Well Schooled

Is that a martingale?

spirithorse · Advanced

It is a racing yoke with martingale.
Does not do anything negative to the horse, in fact, just the opposite occurs.
This horse would giraffe neck when I first got him and within three days of schooling with the yoke, he actually allowed himself to flex in the poll.

No I do not have a full body of him...................

Queenrider · Advanced

This horse is not on the bit or collected. Going by the photo alone (without seeing if his back is lifted) the muscles under the neck show tension and the muscles in the poll area show tension. This horse is simply giving to the pressure of the noseband. Nor is the horse using its neck correctly to balance itself. It appears to have shortened its neck in the photo as well. This horse needs a lot of gymnastic work to build strength so it can carry itself better and develop collection.

Question: Why cannot the head carriage represented in the image be the representation of ‘on the bit’ collection as described by the FEI Rules of Dressage? You will have to take this up with the many judges at all levels who give points for incorrect development.

Question: Why is it necessary to fold the head back into the throat latch to attain the descriptions? It is never necessary to "fold the head back". Many riders use too much hand and not enough leg and this is what happens.

Question: Why is it necessart to break the neck behind the poll and not have poll as the highest point? It is never necessary to do this. This is bad riding/training where the rider is using too much hand (and draw reins) and not enough leg.

Barbara F · Grand Prix

Spirithorse, there is nothing wrong with a horse that is round and soft from back end to front.

A full body shot would be helpful for this particular discussion as one does need to consider the entire horse and not just the head. Perhaps you can snap a quick shot and post it, so we can better understand what you are trying to show us. It is one thing to say that a horse is in collection and on the bit, but for those of us on this end, all we see is a tight shot of the head, so it's almost impossible to join in the discussion.

-- Edited by Barbara F on Friday 10th of December 2010 05:02:36 PM

Figarocubed · Advanced

In fact, there is little about the image that is right, from what little we can see.

The horse is not telescoping its neck forward to open the throatlatch. The angle between head and poll is too closed to be correct and to allow the muscles of the neck (and therefore the back) to be correctly engaged. The lower muscles of the neck bulge, showing incorrect development & carriage. Tension in the neck is obvious, as Queenrider mentioned.

A martingale is not allowed in competition at either FEI or USEF shows -- so why would you use it in schooling a horse? You are the one who constantly pontificates about "the rules" being adhered to even when merely schooling or developing a horse. Hypocritical much?

Goatgirl · Advanced

it is incorrect for a horse to break behind the poll, just as it is incorrect to see a horse too tight and more often than not behind the vertical. A good dressage judge would not reward a rider with with good/respectable score for that kind of riding.

unfortunately in the photo - your horse does look tense and resisting....

remember a horse doesn't come properly into a 'dressage' frame unless it is ridden back to front and has been gradually schooled for the proper muscle development and self carriage - this can not be rushed.

Too often those learning to ride dressage are taught to focus on the head-set rather than working on riding the 'motor' riding the horse from back to front into a soft and giving hand....

pretty horse though

-- Edited by Goatgirl on Thursday 16th of December 2010 01:25:13 AM

barnfrog · Advanced

Points 1-6 made ARe basically correct. A correct connection with the bit by a rider with good equitation produces a horse which is up, open, and active. The hindlegs produce pure gaits. Those are givens.

Question: Why cannot the head carriage represented in the image be the representation of ‘on the bit’ collection as described by the FEI Rules of Dressage?

--Why can the pix not be a representation of this? We cannot tell whether the horse is in collection or not because we cannot see the entire body of the horse. However, we can sumize that it is NOT collected because the under neck is bulging which means the horse is carrying with the bottom line, not with the topline. Additionally there is a bulge at C1-2 which is very incorrect. The horse cannot be 'on the bit' w/o a bit.

Question: Why is it necessary to fold the head back into the throat latch to attain the descriptions? --The rider does not 'fold the neck back'. A green horse is up and open merely connected with the hand. As the hindleg joints fold and compress the base of support shortens and the horse closes the throatlatch to some degree yet still poll high and face in front of the bertical.

Question: Why is it necessart to break the neck behind the poll and not have poll as the highest point? --It is NOT necessary, it is incorrect. And is bad judging even if such horses are winning internationally. That said, the entire bearing of the grey horse's neck which is shown is also incorrect. And likely if we saw the entire horse would show a dropped check and hindlegs which not 'connected' to the rider's hand. If they were the horse could be asked to 'chew the reins forward down out' and thus regain the proper use of the neck and topline (all this reveated by just the head/neck).

ZipsRedDevil · Foal

I love all of this advice and I dont mean to take over this thread but could someone post a picture of what a correct carriage of the body is so we can compare it to the thread owners picture.

barnfrog · Advanced

Hope this link works: http://www.eurodressage.com/equestrian/content/auctions-munster-edingburgh Shows a young horse (probably 4 yo) going up/open/active)

Geoffrey Pannell · Well Schooled

Far too much emphasiss on the head and neck without taking into account the backend of the horse, collection comes from engaigment of the hind quarters. It's not a question of either jamming the horse into a frame or having vrey little contact so the horse falls out the front.

spirithorse · Advanced

Well:

If my horse is so wrong, then the past Masters were also wrong.

barnfrog · Advanced

You see the riding of the grey as the equivalent of Nuno's work? The underneck is different, the atlas/axis area is bulged on the grey. But more importantly one is dynamically out to the hand and gathered in the body. Did you ever see him ride real time? In what way is the use of the body the same? Or the seat/timing of the rider?

I believe in experts (of different schools) who can present not just the neck, but the entirety of the topline correctly as it is a reflection of entire body of the horse with pure gaits and uphill balance. It has nothing to do with winning rides, but the horse's mind and body, and it is clear to all viewers (whether english/western/etc). There is a groom at a local barn whose seat/timing is wonderful. And although the work may be different in nuances, his effects are clear for the horse's balance/reactions. It is delightful to see.

Why a running martingale on a bitless bridle? It certainly is NOT to be used for longitudinal flexion (at the atlas). It is merely to be a pulley on a very green horse if needed (which is hopely never). Lateral flexibility is what leads to longitudinal flexion in a traditional dressage progression.

-- Edited by barnfrog on Saturday 21st of May 2011 03:03:01 PM

Geoffrey Pannell · Well Schooled

You've got a bit of cheak compairing youself to Nuno Olivera!! Show us the rest of the pic and let others be the judge. Compairing your pic and the one of Olivera is like compairing apples and pears, both fruit but a different shape! Hell, my pic is closer to the shape of Olivera's .

spirithorse · Advanced

This is an example of a lacking in knowledge.
With SB it was discovered that the correct placement of the yoke actually does not block the horse in any manner. Rather it affects the horse's release of any constraints within the neck muscles and allows the horse to correctly engage the muscles over the withers.
The result is the raising of the shoulders and lengthening of the forehand stride.
Longitudinal flexion should never be just at the 'atlas', it should occur throughout the neck!
The use of the neck, wither, and shoulder muscles do not affect the back and hindquarters. The back is affected by the rider.

barnfrog wrote:

Why a running martingale on a bitless bridle? It certainly is NOT to be used for longitudinal flexion (at the atlas). It is merely to be a pulley on a very green horse if needed (which is hopely never). Lateral flexibility is what leads to longitudinal flexion in a traditional dressage progression.

-- Edited by barnfrog on Saturday 21st of May 2011 03:03:01 PM

Figarocubed · Advanced

SH, Geoffrey is correct.

Your arrogance is showing again. No part of the horse's body can be influenced without having an effect on the rest of the whole. To say that the neck, shoulder and withers do not influence the rest of the horse is the height of ignorance. What about those (many) times when the horse's back is unconstrained by a rider? Watch a horse grazing and at play. Head down = back up. The horse's back must be made strong over the loin in order to maintain the posture that NO demonstrates. Your horse, I dare to say, if we could see the rest of the picture, would display a relatively hollowed back, with unengaged hind legs.

The masters knew well how to influence the horse. Riding from front to back as you evidently do, is not the way.

Say what you will about your "racing yoke" -- it's a running martingale and has no place in "classical" dressage. Your horse is not reaching forward into a willing contact with the hand -- she is, rather, being framed. This is counter to classical dressage principles.

barnfrog · Advanced

A running/race horse yoke is traditionally for leverage (to prevent horse taking over), and secondarily mere weight (the very act prevents that in the first place), and it should ALWAYS have keepers on the reins to prevent it sliding too far forward.

IF it is in any way acting to cause a horse to 'release of any constraints within the neck muscles' then it is being used for leverage (a simple form of torque, but perhaps w/o extremes if not on a bit). It results in the lengthening of the forehand stride because the neck is taken down and the weight onto the forehand (interesting because Totilas also has an increased foreleg stride).

Indeed, the shoulders should have greater scope and freedom, but that is the result of proper balance and the articulation and proper use of the hindlegs which give more freedom.

What should be used CLASSICAL to allow for a horse to raise the withers is proper use of the hindlegs. Lateral flexibility is what leads to longitudinal flexion of the ENTIRE body NOT use of anything on the head/neck. Mobilization of the jaw and seeking fdo is what gives greater freedom for the hindlegs to step through and give the shoulders freedom. This PROPER use of the balancing rod (that IS what the neck is) absolutely effects the enitre body of the horse and is a mirror of where the legs are and what they are doing. (You must really dislike the work of Philippe Karl because of the statements about the neck). All parts of the horse are affected by what the rider does, not a single part.

For me a depth of knowledge about training in a traditional manner comes from a long term apprenticeship in the classical tradition. It also comes from words having like meaning (as Karl is fond of saying). It also comes from a traditional of progressively making horses for collection. There is a reason that very few pieces of auxilary equipment are used. Because head carriage is NOT manipulation of longitudinal flexion.

"Correct head carriage' is developed by correct/uphill balance and the horse choosing to go forward into the hand with active hindlegs. Head and neck carriage is a REPRESENTATION of the level of training (since longitudinal flexion increases as the hindlegs are gathers/closing the base of support). That means minimal longitudinal flexion in the green horse and a very open throatlatch, it also means LATERAL flexibility allows 'capture' of an engaging use of the hindlegs and therefore increasing longitudinal flexion through the entire body and at the atlas. The key to correct longitudinal flexion is lateral flexibility which also leads to control of the outside shoulder and therefore increasing straightness. That is why those odgs used cavesons first (often with draw reins to 'invite' lateral flexibility...omg) and then curbs. Clear progressions.

-- Edited by barnfrog on Sunday 22nd of May 2011 11:05:46 AM

Jackie Cochran · Advanced

I have been using a Spirit bridle with a running martingle for the last two months. I have ridden for the past 40 years in snaffles, Kimberwicks, Weymouth curbs (5" shank, 2 different horses), double bridles (with both 5" and 7" shanked curbs) and various bitless systems--jumping cavesson (at least 35 years), Nurtural cross-under (almost 5 years), Dr. Cook cross-under (three years), Light Rider, and the LG bridle. This is the first time in my life I've used a running martingle though I did use a standing martingle on one ruined horse until I trained her to go without it.

With my present set up-Spirit plus running martingle, I am having to use contact in grams, when I increase it to ounces Mia gets pissed at me. The only other time I had to use contact this light was when I rode my first horse just in a 5" shank Weymouth curb on contact at a walk in Forward Seat balance (head extended, neck relaxed.) I got this horse to eventually extend his walk on contact with the curb. Even with the double bridle I used stronger contact, though it still was light contact. The only bit I had to use lighter contact with was a 7" shanked Tom Bass curb when used alone.

I assure you that with just a few grams of contact that I am in no way "levering" my horse's head down. I don't think I am taking all the slack out of the reins or the running martingle. Mia, for the first time in 2 years of riding, is voluntarily flexing at the poll, poll highest, neck rising smoothly up from the withers, nose slightly in front of vertical and with her neck correctly arched (this is according to my teacher.) She is even tentatively starting to elevate her forehand and moving my center of balance back. Since Mia is 30 years old, never trained to dressage, and spavined in one hock I NEVER asked her to do this, and now she is doing it in response to hand aids of just a few grams. Since I am a Forward Seat rider who avoids collection I am amazed. I never expected this result. To tell the truth I find it slightly irritating, I like the horse's neck extended. Mia also gives me flexions of the jaw even though there is no bit in her mouth, in response to me releasing my light, correctly timed hand aids. I am now riding much more with my posture/seat, weight and legs and I am using my hands a lot less. Somehow Mia seems to understand perfectly what I am asking her to do. My first straight strides with her, first successful turn on the forehand, first abrupt stop from a trot, first willing back-up, and she seems to be shifting her normal jog trot with no suspension to a true sitting trot, nice and springy. And, of course, my first successful flexions of the poll with her. Pretty impressive. My riding teacher who has been watching me ride her horses for over three years is also impressed.

If I was going to show jump bitless (I can't, I have MS) I would either use the old type Jumping Cavesson bridle (not the buckle in noseband) or the Nurtural bitless. There are times when jumping at speed when you HAVE to take hold of the horse's head, but you can't afford him to go into full collection. While a GOOD rider with exceptionally good and very light hands could probably use the Spirit bridle successfully show jumping I do not think it is suitable for that type of riding with normal riders. Just my humble opinion, of course.

I am not a dressage rider. I can't show since I am exhausted after half an hour sitting up anywhere. These are just the results of a severly handicapped rider with constant hand tremors and no proprioceptive sense who has a lot of experience riding. Previously I had gotten a true flexion at the poll only about three times in 40 years, all using a double bridle, just "feathering" the curb and driving the horse with my legs. I know all of you are not impressed with the Spirit bridle, but I am.

May you all ride your horses in beauty with whichever tack you use. And may your horses enjoy your riding. That can be achieved with any type of tack if you are very good, correct and humane.