Thoughts on this horse's frame?

Barbara F · Grand Prix

Thoughts on this horse's frame?

Jackie Cochran · Advanced

Yes, the horse looks stunning.
BUT behind vertical, thus behind the bit necessitating very obvious and severe hand aids (I saw at least one jerk) the gaits are not pure.
JMHO.
I could not watch the whole thing, I find that when I watch incorrect riding it shows up in my seat and my riding teacher yells at me and the horses I ride also become unhappy with me.
Ranks up there with a lot of competition, circus and exhibition dressage, no better, no worse.

Barbara F · Grand Prix

Jackie, I didn't watch the whole video, but I didn't really see him behind the vertical. Do you think he was there the whole time?
He has such a musculed neck it is hard tell, because the crest arcs so much.

Jackie Cochran · Advanced

The dark brown horse ridden solo a little into the video--behind vertical. (I looked again)
I guess it is how you educate your eye. I have been looking hard at pictures of Arabian stallions for over 40 years, and as you know Arabian stallions are notorious for cresty (if he is fat) arched necks. If I saw an Arabian stallion in a similar frame I would say--behind the vertical, behind the bit. Sure he is stunning, flashy, moves extravagantly, and instead of saying ooh and aah I see a horse that I would have to spend at least a year training to get to move right, and a horse with which I probably would never be able to ride with full contact. Again, just my humble opinion, and I know the vast majority of dressage riders do not agree with me.

Barnmouser Ash · Grand Prix

Just out of curiosity Jackie, would you prefer a horse with the nose in front of the vertical, opposed to behind the vertical? Why one/the other?

Jackie Cochran · Advanced

I want to have the nose in front of vertical. Since I ride Forward Seat I ride with the nose poked out, but if I rode dressage I would aim for a little IN FRONT of vertical except temporarily. If my horse goes behind vertical I drop working on EVERYTHING ELSE until I have the horse going as I like.
Reasons? Just about every book by a cavalry trained horseman I've read states that if the horse is behind vertical that you have no real control, and that the horse can run REALLY FAST with its chin plastered up against its breast. The horse that is behind vertical cannot take proper contact with the bit--it may FEEL like the contact is nice and soft but the horse is evading the bit and at perfect liberty to ignore or disobey any hand aid. PLUS the horse's vision is limited, to just ahead of its feet when a lot behind vertical to not being able to judge the top of a jump at a gallop at a little behind vertical, very dangerous for jumping and cross-country riding. PLUS the horse often ends up leaning on the hand--ie. the horse is on its forehand, which I originally learned was the opposite of dressage's goal of more weight carried by the hindquarters.
I lived several years in Chile when I was young. When I was down there the huasos (cowboys) used this ferocious curb bit with a solid metal ring used as a curb chain, suspended from a high port. THESE horses did not go behind the vertical or behind the bit even though the bit was a lot more brutal that the double bridle. If uneducated Chilean huasos can ride a horse in with its nose in front of vertical even with a severe bit why can't the top educated riders of Europe & the US do the same with milder bits? I could say the same about the Californio Spade bit riders. I guess it goes down to what one is used to. As I said most modern dressage riders do not agree with me. (Note the Chilean huasos mostly rode on loose reins, but they used hand aids more than modern competition dressage riders, just usually not as brutally.)
Again, this is just my opinion. But when a horse I ride goes behind vertical I know that my hands have been too strong at some point of my riding and that the horse is telling me that I am doing it all wrong, that I need to lighten up on the bit, advance my hands, and use my legs as stronly as needed until that nose juts out in front. Then the horse is carrying the bit in the proper place and we can talk, tongue to finger.

spirithorse · Advanced

When a horse overbends and goes behind the vertical it makes the neck muscles rigid, which in turn disengages the muscles over the withers, which disengages the back, which disengages the hindquarters and blocks the shoulder muscles.

Figarocubed · Advanced

Well, well. This discussion was explored on COTH last week. I suggest posters here visit that discussion. Also visit the discussion regarding the use of cavalletti by Spirithorse.

I think you'll find it enlightening.

Anyone who's being "brutal" with their hands is doing it wrong, so I'm in agreement with posters above. The video is about a classical school in Portugal -- I thought "classical" was what all the Modern Dressage/Competitive Dressage naysayers sought. Seems I was wrong.

When I look at the stallion Rubi, I see a light, obedient, happy horse, ridden by a man with an exemplary seat. He is in FRONT of the leg -- a key to remember when judging whether or not a horse is "behind the bit". His neck is very cresty, therefore the poll LOOKS lower than the crest, but the important part to keep in mind is the BONE STRUCTURE underneath all that muscle. The horse is in a correct position. Also, concentrate on the rest of the horse, not JUST the neck & head. The horse engages the hindlegs, lifts his back, can collect and extend his gaits. He is lovely.

If Rubi were ridden with his poll level with or higher than the crest, he'd be engaging his underneck muscles. Yes, you'd have the nose in front of the vertical, but the neck and back BONY STRUCTURES would be hollowed.

Stargazing horses have their polls highest -- but it isn't right. A horse can be behind the vertical slightly and still be ON the bit and in FRONT of the leg. Yes, the horse dips BTV momentarily -- but not consistently. The piaffe & passage work in thei video is exemplary. Those Lusitanos can really sit!

What more could you want?

Barnmouser Ash · Grand Prix

Very well said Figaro; I agree entirely, and you've brought up excellent points about the underlying bone structure.

Jackie Cochran · Advanced

Maybe I need to clarify a little.
When I talk about the poll I am talking about the bony lump between the horse's ears, NOT the second or third vertabrae of the neck. Having been into Arabians for 45 years, looking at every picture and looking at every Arab I got to see in person, I am used to arched necks with crests on stallions, and of telling if the bony poll is higher or lower. I have also spent hours looking at the SRS Lippizaner pictures in Podhajsky's books, and those stallions had arched, cresty necks too, and they still had their poll highest. But that was with the riders doing the dressage riding in the 1950's and 1960's.
It takes a lot of looking to tell if the bony poll is highest on some of the super cresty stallions, but it can be done, and, by the way, the super muscular and heavy crests add to the weight the horse has on its forehand.

Figarocubed · Advanced

I understand what you're saying, Jackie.

The Lusitanos in the video have even more muscular, heavy crests than the Lippizzaners, hence that illusion. Compare photos side by side, I think you'll see. However, there's no way a horse like Rubi is heavy on the forehand. If he were, he could not do the things he does with such ease.

I had the pleasure of watching the SRS the last time they performed in the US in Philadelphia. Yes, there were moments when their crests were higher than the poll. Brief moments.

I am floored by the sitting power those Lusis have. My Hanno will never be able to sit like that. Their muscular forehands are balanced by strong backs and hindquarters. They very easily sit down behind and elevate in front, creating what I'm sure is a light, responsive ride.

Breeding for sport performance has also evolved over the last 60 or so years. The horses that were at the top of the sport 50 or 100 years ago would not be able to compete now. Not because they are or were "bad" horses, but because the purpose-bred horses of the present day are superior by design. Podhajsky was a master -- he took "poor little sausages" to international competitions. As good as he was, if we could transport him and his competition horses of yesteryear to today's venues, I doubt he'd be competitive. But put him on Totilas or Fuego and watch him go to town!

barnfrog · Advanced

It is not a case of personal preference about at the vertical/btv/in front of the vertical IF we use the guidelines for training and showing. They state MULTIPLE times what being in balance and on the bit is supposed be look like. The horse should be in front of the vertical (according to its level of training) and in only one movement is it now (RECENT change) allowed to be at the vertical. That is in piaffe.

There is a difference between a horse which is held btv, holds itself there, and a horse which is behind the bit (which is a condition of the entire body). This horse is sometimes held too shortened, hence closes the throatlatch. Momentary error or steady intentional error? Sometimes it just takes aids too strongly, and holds itself closed/btv (because of the first issue). It is now however behind the bit per se, and that is a tribute to the quality of the rider's seat/etc in the first place.

A horse which seeks the hand PROPERLY stays ifv and does so because of the action of the topline. A horse which braces/drops it chest and comes ifv is above the bit/hollowed. They are two different balances all together.

HOWEVER, the rider comes from a background where the horse' can be longer/more open/correclty ridden. His mentor's horses are not too short or closed, and hence rarely are btv. In this modern/show world, riders are 'giving the judges what they reward'. And it is NOT by the guidelines of the fei, and the hindlegs of the horse show the effects of riding for submission. The horse could be freer in the foreleg and better in the gait.

It is NOT an illusion from the crest, but where the poll (occipital lobe) is in relation to the bone structuer. A horse in front of the vertical has an open throatlatch, the horse is meeting the hand instead of visa versa.

There is no reason a tb cannot 'sit'/lower the quarters through flexion of the hindleg joints. They can do beautiful piaffes. And traditionally (ie with the old german/etc) they even went to levade. Yes, they have a somewhat different character/lightness than the baroque horses, but they still move like horses.

The difference in the periods of time has to do with the VALUE OF TRAINING vs the quality of the horse per se. Are we judging 'materiale classes' (young horse classes which merely evaluate movement for training/natural talent) OR are we judging training (persumably toward collection)?

As to the horses in the vid, it is to promote portuguese horses, some is well done, some is not. The brown horse is times too closed in the throatlatch which is reflected in what it does behind, that is not engaged, it is merely straighter hindlegs further under created by the closed up posture and weight onto the forelegs as a result. Then the extension does not track up which shows the truth of the collection. All that said, a better open balance would allow for freedom/length of stride AND provide for piaffe which was not the more 'goat on the mountain top stance'. Is he a clever rider? To be sure. And All horses are works in progress. I prefer Filippe Graciso/better collection vs over tempos to try to sustain the use hindlegs. The transitions into piaffe are irregular, and the piaffe pirouettes tend step backward, so the horse tells the truth. The quality of the canter and the (decreased) size of the pirouettes HUGELY improves when the horse comes up/open.

So, the horse's use of its body answers the OP's questions.

KatyM · Well Schooled

I'm with Figaro on this one!