Parelli Bucked Off at Big Event

deb · Well Schooled

RE: Parelli Bucked Off at Big Event

deb · Well Schooled

p.s Jackie, sorry for not doing the quotes right, and puttin my words with yours lol,

Nina A · Yearling

Just an FYI, these horses get worked for 3 days total, not all of it infront of cameras.

So it's not just 3 hours of work work work, saddle, ride. It's 3 hours you get to see.

Pat also has his previous horse, who by the way is an amazing horse.

beargirl123sarah · Yearling

hey guys:

the name of my farm is Sarah Falls Farm, and its because I fall off everything I ride..... I believe people get satisfaction in watching others fail..human nature I believe. I try not to behave that way, but secretly find humour in others pain (just sometimes) at least I'm able to admit it. Lets all be human

Sarah

barnfrog · Advanced

It has NOTHING to do with watching the seeming great fall....who takes pleasure in that.

Do viewers understand what makes PP (more likely to) getbucked off LIKELY is that it is shortcutting methodocial PROPGRESSIVE training? Seriously three days to sitting on, and WORKING a horse? And it really is about 3 hours of actual riding....and again what horseman rides a young horse three hours in three days (in a row)? Unless it might be walking out. What happened (if you could see it) was TOO MUCH TOO SOON. Not just mounting, but wtc and spins. And that over reaction from the horse WILL stay with it for a lifetime. Why get to that point? Is THAT what horsemanship is??? Any knowledgable viewer could see it coming!!! Seriously SPINNING a young horse? This was not just getting the horse to sitting on it which is already a lot for an unhandled youngster, it is beyond overkill.

And the best 'horsemen' who modulate what they do, and dont ask are the ones who 'lose' the competiion. More is better. Talk about over doing it and being cheered on...its the roman forums now complete with bodies on the ground.

All of these people are horsemen in their own right in the first place, then they make their money making machines (some even becoming reverands to keep more of their $$), but then if they REALLY were they would NOT participate in these three day wonder presentations.

I know JL/PP/CA/CC/etc personally, but only Chris seems to put the best interests of the horse above the $$ machines they run.

And least we forget almost all these 'games' are based on putting traditional training 'in a box' for those with no apprenticeship to horseman. But these people rarely actually listen to the horse but rather to shake and back directions on the back of the (very expensive) box. And the methods employed are then VERY rough on the horse. And some are very UNsafe (like walking in front of the horse).

Linda P is now attempting to do that with dressage, and its a joke.

Barbara F · Grand Prix

Barnfrog, what do you mean she's attempting to do it with dressage? I hadn't heard that. Yikes!

Shirley C · Yearling

justice wrote:
I don't know any rider that HASN'T been publically dumped at one time or another if they've ridden enough horses, spent enough time out there. The satisfaction/entertainment factour perhaps is in how EASILY he seemed to be unseated. And that even a basic eye could see it coming....

I was at this event and I am a Parelli fan along with admiring many other horse trainers....not horse breakers.
I agree with you that even a basic eye could see it coming but what through me (no pun intended) was that Pat didn't see it coming. He was pushing things much faster then he teaches people to do. It would appear that he got carried away in the moment himself & I was surprised and disappointed with that. But with that said, I have seen a whole lot of the Parelli teaching tapes and him personally and I have found his ideas to be very helpful in many ways for me and I'm very glad to have opportunity to learn from him and others that teach the same methods. Some of the things I like about him is that he teaches basics of reading a horse. He teaches how to see why a horse is acting a certain way and then what to do with the 'why' not just the 'what'. Two horses might be doing what appears to be the very same thing but each horse might need a different reaction from the trainer because of 'why' the horse is acting the way it is.
If he won't do something, is it because he's being snotty and bossy or is it because he is afraid to do what you are asking.
I am in agreement that the RTTH venue is not the best way to introduce a horse to mans ways but it does serve as a venue for people to see different well known and proven trainers and their methods. Maybe that is not a good enough reason to use this venue. The horses do seem to somehow adjust to all of the commotion which says much for their resilence.
Just sharing some thoughts and views on the subject. Seems there are lots of various ideas out there & for some reason there are a lot of con-Parelli people on Barnmice.

Shirley C · Yearling

The two fellas from Canada doing the RTTh 2012 were as good as Chris Cox as putting the horse first and they were both trained with Parelli techniques. Neither are part of the Parelli program any more but their basics are very close.
I was very impressed with Chris at the 2011 RTTH but I've seen him train in group lessons/clinics and he's a bit intimidating for me. I still admire him cause he's fair with the horse.

Shirley C · Yearling

Barnfrog, Yes, what do you mean? I don't see an explanation.

Shirley C · Yearling

Nina A wrote:
Just an FYI, these horses get worked for 3 days total, not all of it infront of cameras.
So it's not just 3 hours of work work work, saddle, ride. It's 3 hours you get to see.
Pat also has his previous horse, who by the way is an amazing horse.

I am curious why you say that they have more then the 3 hours we see with the horse.
I have been to the last two RTTH and was under the impression that they can not work with the horses other then what we see in the arena. I believe they can see the horses but not do anything with them. Like to know if that is not correct.

Shirley C · Yearling

Pat would be very offended to be called a horse breaker. That is not his goal. His goal is to train a horse without breaking it. His step by step method is all about doing things on the horses schedule and forming a partnership that the horse 'wants' to do for the trainer not that the human 'makes' the horse do things.

Shirley C · Yearling

Yakkittyyak wrote:
(Regarding Laura F.'s video link;)
That cartoon video is too funny!! Tell me, PP doesn't REALLY advocate not trimming or grooming your horse, does he?? I hadn't heard about that. If that's the case, it's just waaaay too weird!
I quit listening after I visited a PP disciple about 15 years ago...and she was making the 'claw hand' and the 'porcupine' hand (okay, I don't actually remember, teehee, but it was something like that). I do remember laughing a lot on the way home, by myself! I'll just tack on here, I'm sure he has something to offer. There, I said it.
You know who I think is just great? Seriously great? John Lyons, at least the way he taught back in that era. His methods are SUPER, especially if you work a lot of young horses by yourself, which I do. With his beginning round pen work, you can have a horse responding perfectly to your body language, with NO ropes or halters or equipment. LOTS safer than a lot of other methods. The horses and the trainer both leave feeling better than when you started, and nobody gets hurt. You do need to give the method/horse your full concentration when you are doing it...no talking on your cell phone (snicker). It's not as easy as it looks, at least if you want to do it very well. My only problem is, if people see you do it, they want to know "What the secret is" and have you tell them in 20 words or less. When you try to explain that there is a LOT to it...they just think you are holding out on them. Sigh.
ALSO: Applause for the comments that say "One method will not necessarily work on all horses."
Wow, so true. Just about the time a person starts thinking they are smart, you have a "What the hell?" moment, and you look in your bags of tricks...and the bag's empty, and you turn the bag upside down and shake it...then you look around to see if anyone saw you with an empty bag...it's pretty funny, in retrospect.

-- Edited by Yakkittyyak on Monday 7th of November 2011 11:13:52 AM

-- Edited by Yakkittyyak on Monday 7th of November 2011 11:31:50 AM

This is one I have never heard....that Pat does not groom or trim the hoofs of his horses. This is totally not so.
When you get a little further past the very basics of safety in the Parelli program, you would soon see that Pat teaches different methods for different horses. This is actually a big part of the success that is seen as a result of his in depth training methods. Just like when you are taking any lessons, you get the basics first and then the more meaty stuff.

Shirley C · Yearling

barnfrog wrote:
They took it off because the people who put on the 'how quick can you train the horse' event want to sell video, and likely because PP was irritated. What it showed was a willing horse which PP decided he wanted to spin (like western reining). The horse (remember ridden for about two hours total, if that) stated to do it for about three spins, and then he lost it and said 'get off!!!" (in a big way). I think to present a horse going from unhandled to ridden in two to three two hour periods (to the cheering masses of weekend ridrs) is HORRID. It is about as far from true horsemanship as we can get (no matter how clever the riders). Just mho.

Pat wasn't trying to make the horse spin like western reining! When the horse started to get excited, Pat did what he teaches, go into a one rein stop, which is pulling the horse in one direction with one rein so he can't keep going forward. It is a simple technique that is used by many trainers. This horse had not been ridden for any hours. Pat had just gotten to the point where he thought the horse was ready for him to get on. He went a little too fast for this horse and it was more then it could handle. It is not what Pat even teaches. I saw it coming, Pat got too anxious and went to far to fast. I do not think this is the best way to start a horse either but it is amazing how much the horses seem to adjust to all the activity. It is not unusual to have them roll in the nice footing in the arena. Not something a very stressed horse would do. If you really want to see the 'TRUTH" about the Parelli Program go to Youtube and watch some of students of the program do the tapes that they've made to send in for their Levels' assessments. This is not colt starting but it does give a good rounded out view of what people are being taught from the basics of safety to riding with finesse.
To say that the audience of this is a mass of week-end riders.....To follow the Parelli program and progess with the relationship with your horse, is a several days a week project. I spend at least 15 hours a week with my horse--usually more like 25 hrs. or more. Sometimes I might just be in the lawn letting him graze but I am 'with him'.
It is frustrating to see someone I admire get such a bad rap from people that have actually seen very little of what he does and what he teaches.

Shirley C · Yearling

deb wrote:
sedonasilver wrote:

I also know Parelli breakers who do a GREAT job with their horses, but of course, when you have a problem horse things get difficult and you have to get a bit creative and sometimes a bit 'mean'. Thats why every one has a sook when Pat Parelli gets tough on a horse - because its such a shock. They forget he's still a horse breaker.

Hi
I have no problem with most of what you have to say, can see your point on lots of it. But from someone who comes from a back ground of riding and racing I can tell you that the word 'mean' has me stopping cold. There are no excuses for being 'mean' -- that emotion is a reaction that tells me that a person has lost their cool, has anger towards what they are trying to teach, and is no longer teaching anything-- they are just punishing-- lack of patients, lack of kindness, lack of restraint, lack of communication are all ways that are counter productive-- as Parrelli found out when he landed on the ground. If you find yourself being 'mean' than you better think the situation over again. Mean handeling is rough handleling-- I have dealt with the fall out from this kind of handleling all of my life, stb people are amongst the meanest people alive with horses, and they think this is okay-- after all the horse does what they want after they beat it or man handle it into what they want-- or sort of or kind of or half way kind of does-- and if not, will send it to the local meat auction and then get another horse-- I have bought horses that were 'roped' to work with them, and they have scars both mental and physical, (riding horses), that never quite left them, although they were reworked and ended up productive and happy, I have had horses that were hobbled and they had ruined rear ends, and often ended up lame and mentally scared, and horses that were roped, and or tied down in good old wild west style because all that 'good feel good stuff that you girls practice just dosen't work-- and these horses were ruined, hurt, and scared, some for good some I could fix-- my best show horse was one of these-- the people felt that mean was the only way to work with him, he had scars on his ears and legs from being twitched and tied down, he was horrible to start, but in the end he was the best horse in the area, a 15.1 QH against top dressage horses, and then event horses-- and I was never mean and he was a rig, and I was only a 14 year old girl that showed the 'men' how to work with a rough horse--
On the same hand I do not let my horses run roughshod over me, I expect respect, and give as good as I get, I expect horses to listen to me, but listen to them, I never over face a horse, and always expect them to do the right thing, knowing that they are only living creatures that can make mistakes and am read for them. I have patients, and tollerance, and expect my horses to do the same. I am NEVER mean, I do not use abuse EVER, and it is my opinion that rough methods is another excuse for a lack of thought by the trainer, and lack of patients. While I do not personally follow anyone's 'method' I do not see a problem with those that do, everyone has to start somewhere. As long as the method is kind, understanding, does not use a abuse and will not bring harm to animal or person alike. I am not advocating that there is no place for firmness, or expectations from the human, just that mean equates cruelty or rough handling at best. In my opinion after over 30 years of working with horses and many years teaching riding, if a method works for both horse and rider, and is kind and causes no harm or danger, if each day you can look in the mirror and say I did no harm to the horse, than go ahead, but if words like mean, and rough come into your vocab, you need to look hard at your methods or anyone elses-- also if someone talks a good story, then roughs the horse up (PP???) than you best look at the reality of the situation, not at what he or others have to sell... and on the bright side, if some of his methods work for you, then go with them, if yo see something that isn't right, don't do it.
When I was a kid I had little money and that quarter horse I mention above. Badger was a horse that I should have had many, many hours of lessons to ride, but with not money I had to think up an alternative... my soltuion, watch to see where other people's problems were, know where I was going wrong, or what Badger's short commings were, and then watch other's in their lessons, use the arean mirrors to try and do what the coach suggested for the others. It worked-- proof, I beat 60 000 dressages horses with a 500 dollar horse that I trained myself... there are always solutions to ever problem, and you can mesh many peoples' ideas together and make them your own, so if you do like PP, but not some of his choices or methods take what you do like and go with it.
deb mcdaid
Tiocfaidh Ar La Stable

I totally agree with you Deb about being mean to a horse. That is just not acceptable! If I saw someone being 'mean' to a horse I'd be very upset with that person. I have seen lots and lots of Parelli himself and his students and they are not taught to be "Mean" to the horse. I can't say that there has NEVER been a mean person sneak into the Parelli program but if you find some mean people there, they came in that way, they didn't learn it from the Parelli program.

MirandaofOldFriendsca · Yearling

Well, I'd say its like horseman Buck says - when a horse bucks, it means that the rider is not communicating properly. It means that he has failed the horse in some way because the horse is feeling scared, defensive, ect.