Feugo vs Tortilas

sedonasilver · Advanced

Feugo vs Tortilas

justice · Grand Prix

Two colourfully different perceptions of one concept : )

Barbara F · Grand Prix

I love that video as well. Both horses are just sensational! By the way, I have just read that Totilas will not be making his debut with Matthias Rath in a couple of weeks, as planned. Apparently, he has a hoof abscess.

Nikki Salo · Grand Prix

Both Totilas and Feugo are stunning horses, both showing wonderful qualities of their breed. Great video, thanks for sharing aww

Barnmouser Ash · Grand Prix

I love both horses! I recently discovered Fuego, and I am in love with the way Juan rides him, and the way he moves. Of course Totilas and Gal will always be one of my favourites, and I'm really bummed to hear he's got an abscess. I wonder if it's a switch in farrier styles that caused it since I'm pretty sure he moved to Germany (thus switching farriers??) -- No idea if that's even accurate, so don't quote me at all. But, sad nonetheless. -- Super cool comparison though! ;)

spirithorse · Advanced

Showy horses, however, I as well as a great amount of horsepeople question the training methods and/or breeding that is creating horses whose front legs move exactly like ASB's.
It has now reached a point in competitive dressage where flash is more important than substance. For instance, Totilas actually has a four beat trot not a two beat.

Jackie Cochran · Advanced

I've been trying to keep quiet.

BOTH horses show signs of being driven to the extremes of the movements. People do not seem to realize, that as the front leg makes all those high, reaching, and extravegant moves the hind leg is moving MUCH LESS. Even with the horse going straight the diagonals are disassociated, front leg and hind leg going at different speeds.

I think Tortilas could become a spectacular racker. If I let my eyes blur just a little bit I start seeing a "lick".

I did not see much difference between the two. Feugo actually picked up both hind feet doing the priouette, good for him, but the piaffe looked like he was on his forehand, at least his hind feet were bouncing higher than his front. Totillas had the better piaffe. However when he extended his forefeet when going faster he started looking like a big-lick horse. Same motion of the front leg, sort of looks like the horse is swimming on dry land.

And no, I can't ride like this. I just learned long ago to put AT LEAST as much importance to what the hind legs do when judging the quality of a gait. High flashy front action with white bandaged horses draws the eye away from the hind end action.

Both horses might be happier if they were allowed to express themselves doing the airs above the ground. They have the necessary preliminary work, they have the physical ability and fitness. Let them learn how to fly.

barnfrog · Advanced

So, for the OP, what do you see which is more 'classical'? Or for that matter by the rules/directives? Do we see ANY lateral flexibility (in either horse)? And are either regular in half pass? Are they even in a proper tempo which would allow for lateral flexibility?

High tension and relentless shortened neck drive the horses to too much in front and hindends which are merely going up and down a lot of the time (albeit Juan's horse is less so in extensions, and he does gain some ground), but Fuego is on the forehand in the piaffes. If we look at Totilas in the young horse championships we see a horse with pure gaits, and good mover, and not yet tensioned into highly stressed over movement (because it is short and on the forehand). His trot showing would have gotten very poor scores 30-40 years ago because of the lack of purity.

For what it is worth, I prefer Fuego slightly. And I really like T with MR better (he is longer/more open/purer in the gaits/etc), but we will see if he can come back to soundness, etc.

-- Edited by barnfrog on Thursday 28th of April 2011 04:38:00 PM

Nikki Salo · Grand Prix

While I will agree that these horses are both lifting and throwing their front legs out with a lot of flash, they in no way look like an American Saddlebred, nor like they are performing a Big Lick, but that is just me.. I could need glasses though confuse

Barnmouser Ash · Grand Prix

For the sake of saving this from becoming yet another debate over dressage training techniques and how the horses are being pushed too far, I will just say that either way, these horses are amazing athletes. :)

Jackie Cochran · Advanced

Sorry if I was not clear. These horses are NOT doing a big lick, but T does fling his front legs out sort of like the big lick horses do.

I come to this after reading about the high trot (Park horse) debates in the Arabian breed when I followed them decades ago. One authority (Gladys Brown Edwards) always got after Arabs not having a ASB or Hackney trot, completely ignoring that the desert Bedouin did not trot. But anyway, I learned from her writings how to tell a good high actioned trot (ala good ASB of 50 or more years ago) versus the very disunited usual trot of a Park horse Arab. One thing she was particularly vehement about, this type of front leg actioned. She called it moving the forelegs like they are fly swatters, I think it looks like swimming.

I did not realize about the disunited action between front and hind until I studied a video of a friend with a rather low hind action ASB in a show class. The front legs with high knee action were moving twice as fast as the rather low actioned hind legs, though both feet of the diagonal would land at the same time. The ASBs are a gaited breed, and therefore have this ability to move their legs at different speeds, if the horse does not have this gaited ability then you get the four beat trots.

And I agree with Nikki, these horses do not move like the ASBs. The ASBs do not tend to have the fly-swatter action. This action seems to come mainly from forcing a horse beyond its abilities, the poor horses try to give what their rider asks for, but their movements betray their limits. Just like the Arabian Park horses that GSB so disrespected. And, like the Arabian Park horses forced to go as high in the front as they were able, often fell into a sort-of bastard rack, a really poor rack, but if you look close enough you can see it.

These two are wonderful horses, athletic horses, highly trained horses, and truly spectacular horses. Even so I still watch those hind legs.

barnfrog · Advanced

The asb/etc are doing the kind of trot they are because they have weighted long feet in most instances. Many of the winning horses today are trained with weights, but more sadly are too shortened and btv, hence the forelegs are climbing. The horses MUST land toward the nose points, put the horse over tempo and they strut outward, but then pull back in order to land (once considered THE most problematic document of incorrect training). ARE they highly trained or rather highly submissive but w/o traditional basics (lateral suppleness, longitudinal balance, straightness)??

sedonasilver · Advanced

I love that Juan isnt hanging on the bit - and it appears that Feugo is having a much better time of things with more correct movement, and freedom of movement for that matter... He should have placed better than he did when compared with his competition (not just T). I love that Juan has the lightest of contacts and is very giving to Feugo. While no one can deny Tortilas is incredibly talented, I feel that he is held back by his rider/trainer unrealistic/restrictive expectations. JMO :)

While, agreed, both horses are restricted to some degree, they both have their good and weak points, unfortunately in order to be remotely successful in any level of dressage now days it appears you have to ride in such a way where 'flash' far outweighs correctness in order to please a crowd.

I would love to see both horses schooling on your average day and see if there is a difference in their movement where the riders arent forced to comply with modern expectations. And imagine Tortilas if he was allowed to REALLY let go without being BTV and contracted. I think its important to note that Andalusians have naturally shorter necks and can appear to be contracted at times but I think this video shows he is much softer in comparison to T.

Its been very interesting looking in to the different degrees of correctness vs what wins the ribbons now days. Incredibly eye opening and disheartening at times but makes me all the more determined to ride in what I feel is a more correct/classical way. (But who's the say whats right and wrong?)

Both beautiful horses, and a joy to watch - at a level i could only dream to compete at.

Nikki Salo · Grand Prix

Sedonasilver -- I bet Totilas could show himself, he just needs to see the test before hand aww Both horses are beautiful to me, and are most likely ridden differently at home vs. in the show ring.

Jackie -- Thank you for clarifing, yes I can see how both horses are flashy on the front, I think Fuego paddles more than Totilas because of the breed, I find that Andalusians have that distinct movement on the front where I find Totilas to be "snappy" on the front. I can also see where over emphasis on the front could create a lack of movement in the hind end and where lack of action in the hind end is sometimes seen in Totilas, but I think he has many years infront of him to perfect the art of dressage aww

-- Edited by Nikki Salo on Friday 29th of April 2011 10:37:06 AM

Goatgirl · Advanced

Both are beautiful horses - both are too tight up front -- being held in too tight...those flinging legs put me in mind of spiders --
Totillas does piaffe nicely -- it's so wonderful to see a horse actually sitting down in piaffe the way they are supposed to --as opposed to standing and wiggling

I'm more a fan of baroque horses - but Totillas is beautiful - and I understand what the fuss is about.

in regards to to flinging legs - a couple of years ago Hubby took me to Vegas to the World Cup...and in the Pas de deu - the more the horse flung its legs the more the audience cheered...I remember sitting there thinking -- 'it looks awful - why are people cheering'...

There was an article in Dressage today where -- can't remember - who the writer was - European judge/trainer - said that 'Dressage is becoming a forum in which horses perform circus tricks'

When I see the clip above - the horses are not performing much of the discipline I fell in love with so many years ago.. disbelief

but thank you for posting that clip -- It was really interesting - cool - to see them back to back - that was awesome smile

-- Edited by Goatgirl on Friday 29th of April 2011 12:32:36 PM

barnfrog · Advanced

..."I would love to see both horses schooling on your average day '.... Look at MR's riding of him. It presents him as the directives request. The only missing part is straightness in the twos (which NO one who gets any of EG's horses seem able to correct unfortunately).
......'but I think he has many years infront of him to perfect the art of dressage'..... one would hope so, but perhaps no more than two of his other horses did unfortunately (if the vet rumor mills previous to the sale are true).