classical dressage

spirithorse · Advanced

RE: classical dressage

barnfrog · Advanced

In rewriting, I skipped something sorry (about the nose being necessary to be ifv...that part came out incorrectly....agreed....too much in a hurry after the thread going into the great box in the sky...LOL) The point was to be made that the nose does have to be ifv for the head to be so....but in a vacumn that concept is meaningless. A horse can be entirely hollow in the back, bulging underneck, dropped chest, inactive with the hindlegs going up and down, without topline development etc and yet be very much ifv.

So, the figaro's horse is momentarily at the vertical/horse has shortened. But the GAIT is pure, uphill. At least for that moment. There is no apparent resistance in the horse, and there is suspension. Remember the part you quote is the sixth part, part of the entire picture of guidelines.

When we look at RK the gait purity and balance has occur because of training in a closed posture. There is a light year of difference between intentional overflexion (laterally and longitudinally) and a smidge degree of lost balance).

The most important thing a trainer can do when evaluating a horse one looks first at what the horse DOES have (and as a trainer WHY they have it). And then what might be lacking (and or why). Personally I would love to ride that horse because there is a lot of substance shown. Little refinements could still be applied to be sure.

But you rather ignore the request of the rest as to presenting something else yourself, imho.

Traditionally it is accepted that primary function of the poll/atlas is a 'yes' response (longitudinal flexion), and the primary function is of atlas/axis is the 'no' in lateral flexibility when the horse is up and open (and their shapes are slightly different as well). Specific reactions within the horse eve when just halted. ie an arret/hh opens the throatlatch (esp at C1/poll), or is asked to chew/mobilize the jaw in mm at C1-C2. It is key to uphill riding to think in this refined way (or at least those odg you quote thought so and explained it thusly). When a dressage trainer talks of bend it is in terms of even bending throughout the body, rather than in front of the withers which is truncating. This is where traditional training is so very specific about how the ENTIRE body is used.

And yes the back obtains its bend through axial rotation (created by use of the extremities).

-- Edited by barnfrog on Sunday 22nd of May 2011 01:52:53 AM

Figarocubed · Advanced

Barnfrog, next time you're out this way, I'd be delighted to have you ride my horse!

Barnmouser Ash · Grand Prix

"If individuals choose to disagree that is great, for disagreement should lead to dialoges which should lead to the expansion of one's knowledge. "

Disagreements can be civil in nature and without name-calling. :) I know we have all tried to continue to be mature, but let us not forget that our reputation online can greatly affect our reputation offline. If you are okay with being known as someone who calls people names (I'm not only talking about you, Spirithorse; I merely used your words as reference) and is stubborn about their ideas to the point that they really seem to refuse to see other people's points, then that's great. Let's keep the conversation respectful and upbeat. I avoid these conversations because I know how heated they get, and I have minimal knowledge on the subject; do you all (meaning those of you who want people to learn about the subject) really think the behavior on this thread will draw in new, curious folk?

Just my $0.02 :) Let's act like civilised adults.

Goatgirl · Advanced

agree barnmouser -

It's too bad that everything on this thread went side-ways because until things got nasty - I thought everyone was making really interesting points and providing 'food-for thought' imho anyway...I always like hearing what other people have to say...always figure i can learn from everyone - even if I learn I don't agree...
opinions are just that and some people here know a lot more than I do or know other things ..so it's interesting...I started this thread because I am/was genuinely curious about what people thought...
it's sad things turned ugly.

spirithorse · Advanced

Yes, agreed that bending means the entire body, as in the arc, however, in order for that presentation to be correct there must be lateral flexion in the poll and in the neck structure. Lateral flexion can only be correctly achieved when the muscle structure is supple not constrained.
Classical dressage does not constrain the neck, withers and shoulders. Competitive dressage, on the other hand, clearly does apply constraints and restraints to the entire forehand. The rules of dressage, if ridden correctly are classical in fundamentals, however, the erronuous judging that has occurred over the last ten to twenty years has instituted false presentations of dressage.

barnfrog wrote:
When a dressage trainer talks of bend it is in terms of even bending throughout the body, rather than in front of the withers which is truncating. This is where traditional training is so very specific about how the ENTIRE body is used.

-- Edited by barnfrog on Sunday 22nd of May 2011 01:52:53 AM

barnfrog · Advanced

".........Competitive dressage, on the other hand, clearly does apply constraints and restraints to the entire forehand. "

Not always, and not across the board. That distinction must be made. There ARE some horses which ARE traditionally schooled. And I hope that the (new and improved) Toto WILL show the differences with MR. (And my frame of reference for making those statmements iis almost 60 years.)

spirithorse · Advanced

I second that. From the images being provided so far, I would say there is already great improvement in Toto.....he looks so much more relaxed and his neck is definitly softening.

barnfrog wrote:
And I hope that the (new and improved) Toto WILL show the differences with MR.

EricaK · Foal

Just stepping into this discussion.. but a few thoughts -

If you genuinely sit down and read through the books written by Classical Dressage Masters throughout the ages you'll notice something - they are as varied in ideas as one could imagine, possibly moreso.

There are classical masters whose words can be quoted to make every rider from Nuno Oliveira to Sjef Janssen a true classicist follower. That is the important separation - Classical Dressage is just a giant term umbrella. There are divisions that separate the schools by country - German, Spanish/Portuguese, French. There are those who trained the royals, those who displayed their art in the circus and those still who worked first for the military and second for the art of equitation.

Really, it continues today - when I read that someone trains "Classical Dressage" to me it says nothing. No one advertises as "Competitive Dressage" trainer, etc. :) It may seem that some are simply jumping on the catch phrase bandwagon because it is in fashion now to ride classically - whatever that may be. But truth be told it is correct for anyone whether their focus is competitive or artistic dressage to be able to term themselves as classical.

To me the more important question is - whose body of work do you follow and to what extent? That tells me more.

Classical Masters were not necessarily any kinder to their horses than the riders/trainers we see at the extreme end of competition. We rather fantasize their qualities in the way that we fantasize about many great historical figures - dead presidents, war heroes, poets, composers, artists, etc.

F+ · Yearling

Importance of the pillars and the develupment of the hind first and foremost in order to go fotward. That has been lost with the new "don't ride the horse" training method from the feedlot.

Figarocubed · Advanced

Huh? I agree with the development of the hind end -- but what's this '"don't ride the horse" training method from the feedlot' speak? Explain, please.

spirithorse · Advanced

For me classical means correctness for the horse's anatomy. The movements of dressage are done correctly as prescribed without inhibiting the horse. That means the schooling process from the beginning should not include physically constraining the horse. Rather we should encourage the horse to want to perform.
As an example: I use an image of Nuno Oliveria at piaffe which I believe is correct per the descriptions, yet I have seen numerous images of N.O. that are not good ones at all in my humble opinion. No matter who the teacher or rider is, including myself, we are human and do make mistakes. A classical teacher makes the least mistakes and takes great effort to fix the mistakes.

sammi · Yearling

here in nz i haven't seen any clinics for classical dressage. we aren't caught up so much in the non classical/neo classical movement.

F+ · Yearling

Lets focus on the hind. The outside hind should advance and cross over the the inside hind forward, then the inside hind should advance forward. In doing so the front becomes quite light and off the forhand. The horse will arch it's back and raise it's head. That can be to much impulsion for a lot of riders/trainers. With this engagement there needs to be an appropriate position of the rider, one that can sit "airs above the ground". The nature of the horse is not to go flat. This feedlotmanship is the opposite; roundpens, long-low, figure skateing type crossovers in turns, backing up, spinning and the use of those awful flags all counteract the nature of the horse.

Figarocubed · Advanced

Oh. NH, you mean, F+?

Still, Your description of the outside hind crossing over the inside hind forward is not making sense to me. Doesn't that depend which side of the horse you're working and which side is weak or stiff?

Explain further, please.

Sammi, you're not missing a thing in NZ. Lots of folks claim to be "classical" here in the US. Or they say nothing at all about it and just teach good principles. IMO, the ones who squawk the loudest about "being Classical" are fulla beans.

F+ · Yearling

Just try it, if that is you in the avatar, it will raise the pole alittle more allowing your hands to raise thus causeing your eye level to raise slightly resulting in a prouder more powerful position and a shorter rien longer arm. 4 inches or 10 centermeters in pole hight will change alot, I will assume 2nd level medium canter is the avitar.

As far as witch side. I like to think of it as port and starboard tack as in sailing, the wind being your inside leg.

Figarocubed · Advanced

F+, your description of the OUTSIDE hind crossing over the INSIDE hind forward is STILL not making sense to me.

Explain again, please. I do NOT understand that OUTSIDE hind crossing over part. I always read it/learned it as having the INSIDE hind stepping under the horse's center of gravity. Is this a typo or is that what you meant to write? Are you talking about a German leg-yield or some lateral move or turn?

l completely understand the sailboat idea -- often reminding my students to "fill their outside rein with horse" by use of the inside leg.

No, the avatar horse (Figaro) was showing at Training and First the year that photo was taken, though some Second level work was being done -- he was not strong enough to perform Second level until the following year. He had just completed about 15 months of rehab to strengthen an injured back that ended his jumping career. He was and is a work in progress. Neither of us is perfect, though he is, I believe, the best horse I will ever be blessed to own. We were warming up for a test. I have not asked for advice or criticism based on the photo. Still, the photo has elicited comments...

It's my avatar photo, nothing more; my beautiful, wonderful, heaven-sent gelding.

Barbara F · Grand Prix

Thank you for sharing your ideas, F+. I look forward to reading more.

p.s. Figarocubed, here is my comment about your horse... he is GORGEOUS and he looks like such a good boy!!! :)

Figarocubed · Advanced

Thanks! He's my best pal!

F+ · Yearling

This is based on inside leg, out side rien. Putting the horse on the outside aids.

This came from a book "School of horsemanship" as Volts.

I believe it's the opposite as the inside stepping under the horses center of gravity and I have heard that before.

This is hard to communicate. Just try it and see at the walk, then go straight, then ask for trot or canter.

Figarocubed · Advanced

Yes, yes, I know about putting the horse on the outside rein via use of the inside leg.

Ah, Gueriniere's book. Yes, I have it and have read it. You are trying to describe
his "Volte Ordinaire", correct?

F+ · Yearling

Pretty much

Figarocubed · Advanced

Good! So glad you mentioned the title of the book, or we might have continued playing "20 questions" forever!