Hey Allen, what do you think? I thought she did a really nice job.

p.s. I wonder what kind of footing that is.

Wait till I get a video of this Canadian horse under SB for the first time.........then you shall see correct 'on the bit' frame......his rider even shows him in piaffe.

I read your words with great interest Barnfrog.  You saw the deficiencies of the performance very well.  Due to the heat messing me up I won't be able to make any valid observations of collection with a BB, not that I would get any great observations on an almost 30 year old mare!  Maybe with the teenage mare I ride.  They won't be observations of me doing the piaffe either, I'll never be at that level.

One thing I noticed with the strapped (Dr. Cook & Nurt.) cross-unders is that my hands hated trying to keep contact with them.  I got my best results with slightly sagging reins and well timed hand aids.  The only time I got collection with my Nurtural BB was on completely loose reins, I think I was holding them at the buckle.  (Neck coming up like a water fountain, flexed at the poll, withers came up, her barrel widened between my legs, and the back of my saddle disappeared downwards under my seat bones.)  In fact I think that is the only time I've gotten real collection in my life.  No hands, completely loose reins, just legs.  This was on the teen-age mare.  So it can be done.  Not with strong contact though.

I am noticing mouth flexions using the Spirit bridle when I use well timed hand aids, but I do not get them if my timing is off.  I have not been asking for poll flexion, but I did get it in an abrupt halt from a trot, using the reins no leg, not full collection, just the poll flexion on the 30 yrl old mare.  I am not going to experiment with this for several months, it is the 90's F already and the heat is making my disabilities A LOT worse this year. 

What people forget about BB's is that you cannot drive the horse onto a bit with them.  The nasal bone is not a substitute for the sensitivity of the horse's tongue and lower jaw.  However on a LIGHT rein the cross-unders work mainly on the lower jaw with very light poll pressure.  With the rounded leather cross under of the SB I am getting some reactions equal to a bit, and considering how bad my hands are right now the results of the SB are superior to what I would get with a bit.  If I did not have MS and had steady hands, legs, and good balance I would be reluctant to give up a bit, but as it is I am delighted to have this option.

People need to ride the BBs with LIGHT reins or problems appear just like with a bit. 

A rider can drive the horse into containment in ANY halter/bb/etc.  Even with a neck strap/wire this is possible. Hence we see losses of balance (onto the forehand) in the (nevertheless) nice work of the fei horse.The nasal bone IS a substitute as well (hence hackamores).  The question is:  why one would want pressure on the lower jaw OR the poll??  What is to be accomplished by this that contributes to collection?

Alan, HOW does a bb horse 'free the muscles'? Or affect the structure of the horse? Certainly without a bit the horse is freer from the effect of an imbalanced rider, but how does it contribute to training?  So far, I have not seen it in training of the horse per se (not the presentations of already trained horses).  I have ridden upper levels and jumped horses bitless/bridleless/etc, I think I have a grasp of many different types of training (western/english/etc) and purposes of equipment.  Perhaps that is why I am skeptical....I need a clear 'show me'.

How is there to be softness of the jaw with a bb ....defined as chewing and swallowing?  Or 'mouth flexions' (I dont understand that term) with the cross under (or any bb/halter/etc) format?  

Equally, I do not understand the excuse of a lowered neck in bb. Poll (do you mean at the atlas??) flexion is not what engages the hindquarters.  Folding hindquarter joints creates equal flexion in the vertebral bodies of the neck.  Engagement is largely a result of correct balance.

How does the cross under allow greater control of the (outside) shoulder on something like a circle (or keep the horse more upright)?  This concept is key to greater straightness.  But action on right rein puts pressure on the outside jaw and inside nasal bones even with breath of repeated contact.  And how to ride an even volte?  Those things so far are unclear in all work I have seen.

Barnfrog:

Please recognize that I address your questions from the use of SB for 22 years, and from its design and not the copycat bridles.

I also wish to reiterate that in SB the rider MUST use extremely light rein aids with touch and release phases so that there is no constant pressure to the head structure of the horse.  Reconizing that there are times when the rider must take a hold of the bridle.

SB does not apply a locking pressure to the lower jaw.  Instead there is a pulling pressure that begins in the rider's fingers and continues to the poll.  In fact, when the rider has hold of the reins a horse can open its jaws.  When pressure is applied to the rein aid the affect at the poll is a suppling of the muscle structure which allows the lateral flexion of the poll to come into play.   This suppleness also creates the lateral flexion of C3 and C3.

The suppleness of the poll region allows the neck, wither and shoulder muscles also to be supple.  The neck is not connected to the back in a manner which affects the hindquarters.   The neck affects the forehand through the muscles over the withers and the shoulders.  Collection, which is merely impedence of forward motion resulting in the compaction of the horse's frame, must be balanced front to rear.  In SB, the suppleness of the forehand 'allows' the horse to use its torso muscles to raise the back and thus thoroughly engage the hindquarter.  Resulting in strides that are equal.

SB frees the muscles because there are no constraints induced by the horse affecting the muscle structure.  This occurs because the rider is not affecting any constraints of the forehand through the rein aids.   I also wish to reiterate that in SB the rider MUST use extremely light rein aids.

The freedom of constraints to the muscle structure allow the horse to correctly use its self when being schooled.  So the movements desired by the rider can be achieved with more accuracy and in a more timely manner.

Yours and others skepticism is valid.  As I have stated so many times, presentations of bitless dressage show riders using the equipment as if it is bitted.

Softness of the jaw as defined by chewing and swallowing is a false representation.  Horses that are correctly schooled in SB have absolute freedom of the jaws and yet chewing and swallowing is not a common appearance.  That says that the bits are the direct and proximate cause of chewing and swallowing.  These actions have a negative affect upon the attention of the horse to the rider...as has been demonstrated using a bit hanger with a simple snaffle in conjunction with SB.

In SB one does not want a lowered neck.  When the neck lowers the wither muscles are disengaged which impedes the shoulder muscles.  The hindquarters do not have any affect on the lateral flexion of the neck...the lateral flexion of the neck affects the hindquarter.

Ah, the inside/outside rein issue.  The inside rein is the directional rein...going left it affects the right poll which creates the movement in the horse's head turning the nose in the direction of travel.  The outside rein is the control rein, it follows the inside rein and as a result the horse's body forms an arc of the circle asked for.  On the straight line, the rein aids allow the horse to maintain straightness easier because neither shoulder is blocked, this is also true in the circle.   In SB, one can turn a horse of any size around a barrel in circle and stay as tight to the barrel as one desires.

Remember in SB the correct usage does not apply constant pressure to any portion of the head.  This results in the rider being able to use the rein aid in a touch and release manner...the horse will only change the direction or movement when a new rein aid is asked.

Do these answers help?  And by the way, one can ride a bit in this manner, however, the horse will and does apply some constraint to its muscles with a bit in place.

 

barnfrog wrote:

---

A rider can drive the horse into containment in ANY halter/bb/etc.  Even with a neck strap/wire this is possible. Hence we see losses of balance (onto the forehand) in the (nevertheless) nice work of the fei horse.The nasal bone IS a substitute as well (hence hackamores).  The question is:  why one would want pressure on the lower jaw OR the poll??  What is to be accomplished by this that contributes to collection?

Alan, HOW does a bb horse 'free the muscles'? Or affect the structure of the horse? Certainly without a bit the horse is freer from the effect of an imbalanced rider, but how does it contribute to training?  So far, I have not seen it in training of the horse per se (not the presentations of already trained horses).  I have ridden upper levels and jumped horses bitless/bridleless/etc, I think I have a grasp of many different types of training (western/english/etc) and purposes of equipment.  Perhaps that is why I am skeptical....I need a clear 'show me'.

How is there to be softness of the jaw with a bb ....defined as chewing and swallowing?  Or 'mouth flexions' (I dont understand that term) with the cross under (or any bb/halter/etc) format?  

Equally, I do not understand the excuse of a lowered neck in bb. Poll (do you mean at the atlas??) flexion is not what engages the hindquarters.  Folding hindquarter joints creates equal flexion in the vertebral bodies of the neck.  Engagement is largely a result of correct balance.

How does the cross under allow greater control of the (outside) shoulder on something like a circle (or keep the horse more upright)?  This concept is key to greater straightness.  But action on right rein puts pressure on the outside jaw and inside nasal bones even with breath of repeated contact.  And how to ride an even volte?  Those things so far are unclear in all work I have seen.

-- Edited by barnfrog on Tuesday 21st of June 2011 11:17:25 PM

---

 I have used the SB/other bb/hackamores/bitless/etc are used with touch/release kind of concept. That is the good news and the bad news in all cases, because it easily traps the horse behind the aids, no recycling per se.

And a bitted bridle should be essentially a very light contact which is steady because there must be a 'recycling' of energy for high(er) collection.  

No matter NOW you cut it, the cross under bridles DO apply pressure to the lower jaw/poll....we all agree on that point.   Why would the rider want (initial) lateral flexion at C3???  I should be initially/lightly at poll/C1.  Lateral flexion at C2 is primarily done stand still, but is easily over done.  Never the less, how would poll/outer jaw pressure create proper lateral flexion.

Suppleness at C1 (longitudinally)/C2(laterally) per se is not what allows shoulders to be free.  But that kind of suppleness starts with mobility of the jaw/chewing and swallowing as well as proper balance.  The level of neck is the EXPRESSION of what the hindlegs are doing, and its ability to telescope (within a movement) DOES affect the hindquarters.

Collection is NOT 'merely impedence of forward motion resulting in the compaction of the horse's frame, must be balanced front to rear'.  Collection is AMPLITUDE of stride, thrust upward rather than forward and it is the RESULT of COMPRESSION/FLEXION of ALL the hindleg joints.  The hindquarters therefore lower as the joints compress and the WITHERS are raise.

The rider in a bb of any type is STILL contraining the forehand, even with the quickest of hh/demi arrets.  

The question remains, HOW is this nuance to occur???  With a full bridle the snaffle can immediately give a hh and become more upright, or mobilize the jaw to ask the horse to chew fdo.  And the curb can lower/close the throatlatch.  Those actions are VERY specific (and obviously combined with the seat/leg/hh/etc).  HOW is that to happen in anything without a bit???  Even with a neck strap only there are only hh ability to not any other action.

HOW is the bb to 'provoke' chewing/swallowing?  It may happen upon occasion, but it is not a use of the bridle.

Softness of the jaw as defined by chewing and swallowing is definitely NOT a false representation, it is a key to ability to balance and influencing the horse.  It also is key to the 'chain of reactions' within the horse's body.

As to the SB not wanting a horse to have a lowered neck....oh my.  A horse going FDO does NOT impede the shoulders.  Only a lowered flat neck or a horse with the  a chest dropped or a hollow back impedes the shoulders.  A high neck in and of itself is meaningless.

In movement hindquarter activity on a curved line DOES affect the lateral flexibility of the horse, merely putting the neck into flexion per se can just as easily cause the quarters to fall away.

"The inside rein is the directional rein...going left it affects the right poll which creates the movement in the horse's head turning the nose in the direction of travel.  The outside rein is the control rein, it follows the inside rein and as a result the horse's body forms an arc of the circle asked for. ....  " I don't get this how there is a positive action on the right side of the poll going to the left puts the nose to the right except by action on the nose.  IF the horse is to stand on the outside rein (which is really connected to the inside ring) then why should it be given forward?  In order for a horse to have greater straightness it MUST remain positioned inside, esp in higher levels.  So, this becomes very muddy to me.

Self carriage (in a bitted bridle) implies that the 'constraints' are in the horse carrying itself, but this is not early on in training.

Interestingly if one studies older traditional materiale, there was use of a caveson (with reins) combined with a curb.  Lateral flexibility with the caveson, longitudinal flexion from the curb.  VERY methodical use of figures and exercises.

Remember with a bosal one also use mecate reins, and orchestra if reactions.  But it was used as a prep for spade bit work.  Up/open/active, then progressive training.  (And I have worked cattle in many set ups a la the vaquero progressions).  For sure it could be used with forward seat/jumping.

There is a reason that the toF should be with a rein in front of the withers rather than a direct rein of opposition (which is a crude aid).  The horse shortens and lifts its neck in a proper TOF.

For sure, if the rider uses strong hand aids in the BB the neck will go down and the horse will go behing the vertical and onto its forehand.  If the rider does not release the hand aid the same thing will happen. .....this applies in bb/bitted bridles/etc.

Jackie, when you are talking about 'poll flexions" what do you mean?  Lateral or longitudinal?  When I speak flexions for the most part I am talking about mm of flexion at C2 (flipping the nuchal ligament) and then immediately seeking fdo.  Work in hand first is high(er)/light, then lateral flexilbility, then chewing fdo, longitudinal flexion comes over time.

Agreed that bend should originate in the (positioning of the) legs, but this is not part of the message.      

Hi Barnfrog,

I am  talking about poll flexion longitudinaly.  I am not currently at a physical level that I can even think of asking for the side flexion of the poll, that will have to wait for the fall, late fall when it does not get above 70 F!

A REALLY good FS rider may be able to use a bosal and ride FS, but since I do not have good balance I do not think it is fair to the horse for me to try it, I respect the authority of the bosal!  For FS I find that the old style of jumping cavesson bridle, with the divided cheek pieces is the best bitless if one wants to keep consistent contact with "passive" hands.  I've been using mine for almost 40 years.  However the Jumping cavesson bridle does not have the authority of a cross-under, and it really helps to have a cooperative horse!

Because of my hand tremors I allow the horses to gently lengthen the reins through my fingers whenever they want to extend their necks (my fingers are usually soft and relaxed.)  This is the main way I currently convince my horses to accept contact with anything, bit or bitless.  Mia, for one, does not allow me to restrain her head no matter what I use, unless there is an emergency, then she accepts it.  The flexions of the lower jaw happen AFTER I release my hand aid, not during it with both the bit or the SB.  Who knows, maybe this is her signal that she approves of the action of my hands and she is rewarding me!  

Mia is an old Arab mare, arthritic and very finicky with her mouth and nose.  She does not allow me to restrain her forehand without protest.  Whichever head action she gives me is usually of her own free will on light rein.  I know this because, invariably, when she thinks my hands are too hard she curls up behind the bit/nose band or shoots her head up in inversion and does not react correctly to the aids.  I was totally amazed when she flexed her poll, I never thought I would get it from her.  Again, I will have to wait for the cooler weather before I can even think of asking her to flex her poll in whatever direction.

This is an interesting discussion!     

YOU are the one that says that lateral flexion is at C3....so you are staying one joint. I am asking why you said that vertebral body? What is the source? BEND is does evenly through the vertebral bodies that is true, but initial POSITIONING of the neck IS esp at C2 (the 'no' flexion...and at C1 is is 'yes' or lightly longitudinally). And yes, I have watched autopsies and examined vertebral bodies. I also know that by millimeters of lateral flexion at C1-C2 the nuchal ligament 'flicks over'. And that this nuance is one of the touchstones of traditional dressage training. This depth of analysis is part of observing how horses use their bodies optimally if training is to be traditional.

Barnfrog:

I NEVER said that lateral flexion is at C3.....I said that C3 is a part of the lateral flexion. In competitive dressage horses the BEND in the neck is not even correctly in place, simply because the muscle structure of the neck is constrained.

Lateral flexion begins at the joint of C1 and the occiptal protrudence and 'should' continue throughout the rest of the remaining six joints of the neck.

The nuchal ligament 'flip' is not the cause of lateral flexion, it is the result of the neck muscles being supple, for without supple neck muscles the ligament could not flip.

Lateral flexion is far more important than longitudinal flexion, for the lateral flexion is what produces the suppleness of the muscle structure.

As for observing autopsies and this giving comprehension of the operations of the muscles....my cavalry vet told me years ago that the only way to understand muscles was to see them function!  I have had two injuries in my life that defied the expert doctors who tended to me.....and both times their conclusions were the same, the suppleness of my muscle structure is what produced the incredible healing......

The withers raise as the hindleg joints compress because the base of support is shortened. The horse appears to 'take off like a jet' (like a horse jumping, or one in levade). 

Once again you are incorrect, simply because when riders correctly use SPIRIT BRIDLE they feel the withers raise without feeling further engagement of the hindquarters.............besides if you really studied equine anatomy you would see that your statement is actually not possible due to the design of the equine muscle structure.  Purchase "Horse Anatomy, A Pictorial Approach to Equine Anatomy" Second Edition by Peter Goody with illustrations by John Goody

When the horse is ridden 'in position' it chews, the mastrix muscle produces saliva, when the horse chews and swallows it also offers longitudinal flexion.

This statement is false as un-bitted ridden horses prove time and time again.

But fdo is small degree is part of extension...the shoulders have MORE freedom (unless the horse is held closed)

FDO is not a part of extension in the least, simply because the muscle structure of the horse will not allow for extension when the head of the horse is lowered below the line of the withers.

I have been riding in SPIRIT BRIDLE for over twenty years and the results that are produced on every horse are the same.   Yes, they contradict tradition and that is the problem.  You choose not to 'allow' yourself to even fathom the possibility that we just might have been schooling our horses in opposition to their requirements.  Something folks seem to easily forget is that I was schooled traditionally, to the extent that I had to ride dressage and work cattle in a simple snaffle without me taking hold of the bit nor the horse taking hold of the bit.  If you choose to be unwilling to learn something from the horses, so be it.

I do enjoy your posts and questions though.



Although I agree that many competition horses are too compressed to have even bending (in the neck) or even proper positioning (ie AvG rides in position right almost always), this does not negate the comments.   Why bring up C3 at alll in lateral flexibility discussions, C3 is where the longitudinal break often occurs.  So I am still mixed up by your comments. 

Fiipping of the nuchal ligament only happens with proper positioning, not by pulling a horse to the inside.  It is also easily linked with mobilization of the jaw.  A horse can be free in the neck muscles and still not flip the crest over.  And in general it is more an action at C1-C2, not at the occipital lobe.

For sure FDO's action  (in a small degree as I said)) IS part of extension, the horse lengthens it frame and stays IFV in order to do an extension an use its entire body to gait ground.  The horse does NOT lower the neck below the level of the withers in ANY exercise, save when it is learning chewing the reins from the hand an loses balance.

The only thing that conterdicts tradition is your own definitions of exercises/collection which you have not (by your own admission) not done.

I fathom MANY possibilities, but I also require proofs.  I am one of a few people (there used to be a lot) which have ridden all the 'seats' and trained horse from beginning to trained in all the disciplines.  (And I started out almost before I could walk working cattle).  I observe all the different schools (ie french/german/scandanavian/russian/spanish/portuguese) and look for their essences, and have studied with representatives of them as well (in depth). I use the commonalities, and I question why the nuances particular to that school 'work' (both with the upside and down side!) 

I can only go by the work you have presented in the bb so far in photos and vids, and so far they do not fulfill expectations.  That is not to say they do not serve a purpose for a part of the riding public.  But equally your definitions of what is 'by the rules' are so far not by those directives (in the eyes of those who have produced high levels of collection).  And perhaps therein is the rub.

Here is a good discussion of the long back muscles/etc (and his book is throughly worth buying  http://www.amazon.com/Tug-War-Classical-Incorrect-Negatively/dp/1570763755/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1308841740&sr=8-2      http://www.schleese.com/documents/FUNCTIONAL%20ANATOMY%20OF%20THE%20HORSE.pdf

Some good source materials:

Conformation & Movement

Bennett, DebConformational Analysis I, II& III  (by Equus)

Equine ResearchHorse Conformation

Harris, SHorse Gaits, Balance and Movement

Loving and LagrishConformation and Performance

McBaneConformation for Purpose

Biomechanics and Physiology

BregaHorse Physiology

Clayton, HilaryThe Dynamic Horse

CodyVisualizing Muscles

Equine ResearchHorse Conformation

EquusSolving Behavioral Problems

EquusSport Science II 

Harris, SHorse Gaits, Balance and Movement

PillnerGetting A Horse Fit   and Horses in Motion

Rachen-SchoneichStraightening the Crooked horse

Smythe/Good/GreyHorse Structure and Movement

Sno/VogelEquine Fitness

Vasko, KentEquine Biomechanics.:Structure,Function

and     Physiology & Conditioning

Wyche, SaraAnatomy of the Horse’s Legs

Anatomy of Riding

Muscles in Motion

Understanding the Horse’s Back

Sara's books are GREAT

And especially good is Nancy Nicholsen's  http://nicholnl.wcp.muohio.edu/DingosBreakfastClub/BioMech/BioMechRide1.html  and her site actually shows all the muscles working within each gat!!!!!!

A more in depth list if any one wants it (and I have 497 books in my dressage libary this is a key part as well>:

Anatomy, Behavior, Alternative medicine, Care, Conformation, Feeding, Lameness, Physiology, Shoeing, Sport Med, Veterinary

Adams                            Lameness in Horses

Ashdown                                     Veterinary Anatomy

Baxter, Michael                 Academy of Equine Sport Therapy

Bayley, Lesley                         Understanding Your Horse

Bendlage, Doug                         Merck Veterinary Manual, The

Bennett, Deb                       Conformational Analysis I, II& III  (by Equus)

Brega                             Horse Physiology

Britton                                         Alternative Therapy for Horses

Budras                                         Anatomy of the Horse

Burger, Udo                     The Rider Forms the Horse

Butler                            Horse Shoeing

Clayton, Hilary                        The Dynamic Horse

Cody                                            Visualizing Muscles

Dove                             Veterinary Anatomy

Ellenberger                                 Animal Anatomy

Equine Research                       Horse Conformation

Equus                            Solving Behavioral Problems

Equus                            Sport Science II

Farnam                           Know Practical Horse Feeding

Frick                             Fitness in Motion

Goody                           Horse Anatomy

Grey                                          Essential Horse Care for the

Harmon                                      The Horses Pain Free Manual

Harris, S                          Horse Gaits, Balance and Movement

Hayes                             Points of the Horse

Horace                           ?????

Hourdebaig                           Equine Message

Kammer                                      Coloring Atlas of the Horse

Kapit                                            Antomy Coloring Book

Kaptchuk, Ted                  The Web that Has No Weaver

Kiley-Worthington                                     Preventing Colic in Horses

                                                      The Behavior or Horses in training

King                              Horse Watch-Equine Report

Loving and Lagrish                    Conformation and Performance

Lourd                                        Horse Anatomy

McBane                          Behavior Problems in Horses

                                                      Conformation for Purpose

                                                      100 Ways to Improve your Horse’s Behavior

Meagher, Jack                   Beating Muscle Ijuries

Nicholson                                                     Anatomy of Dressage

Pascucci                                       Equine Myofacial Release

Pillner                            Getting A Horse Fit

                                                      Horses in Motion

Rachen-Schoneich                                     Straightening the Crooked horse

Rooney, James                  The Lame Horse

Smythe/Good/Grey              Horse Structure and Movement

Sno/Vogel                        Equine Fitness

Stubbs                                         Anatomy of the Horse

Sutton                                         Injury Free Horse

Tappenden                       Equine Therapy

Tellington-Jones                  Getting In T-Touch

                                    Horse Behavior and Training

                                    Improve Your Horse’s Well Being

                                    Let’s Ride

                                    Team Training

                                    Tellington-Jones Equine Awareness Method

                                    Touch That Heals, The

                                    Touch That Teaches, The

Vasko, Kent                      Equine Biomechanics.:Structure,Function

                                    Physiology & Conditioning

Wanless, Mary                            For the Good of the Horse

Webb                                           Build a Better Athelete

Wyche, Sara                      Anatomy of the Horse’s Legs

                                                      Anatomy of Riding

                                                      Muscles in Motion

                                                      Understanding the Horse’s Back

Wilde, Clare                     Hands On Energy Therapy

Wiley                             Dancing in the Dark

Williams,                                      Understanding Nervousness in Horses

Worthington,                   The Behavior of Horses

Zudonia                         Equine Accupuncture

1 Alternative Medicine

Frick                             Fitness in Motion

Meagher, Jack                    Beating Muscle Ijuries

Pascucci                                         Equine Myofacial Release

Wilde, Clare                      Hands On Energy Therapy

Tappenden                       Equine Therapy

Tellington-Jones                  Getting In T-Touch

                                    Improve Your Horse’s Well Being

                                    Let’s Ride

                                    Team Training

                                    Tellington-Jones Equine Awareness Method

                                    Touch That Heals, The

                                    Touch That Teaches, The

Sutton                             Injury Free Horse

Zudonia                           Equine Accupuncture

2 Anatomy

Ashdown                                        Veterinary Anatomy

Budras                                           Anatomy of the Horse

Clayton, Hilary                         The Dynamic Horse

Cody                                            Visualizing Muscles

Dove                             Veterinary Anatomy

Ellenberger                                 Animal Anatomy

Equine Research                       Horse Conformation

Cody                                             Visualizing Muscles

Dove                              Veterinary Anatomy

Goody                           Horse Anatomy

Hayes                             Points of the Horse

Horace                           ?????

Kammer                                        Coloring Atlas of the Horse

Kapit                                             Antomy Coloring Book

Lourd                                         Horse Anatomy

Nicholson                                      Anatomy of Dressage

Stubbs                                         Anatomy of the Horse

Wyche, Sara                      Anatomy of the Horse’s Legs

                                                      Anatomy of Riding

                                                      Muscles in Motion

                                                      Understanding the Horse’s Back

Why does a horse have to be driven into a bridle, bit or otherwise, to get collection or flexion? Don't horses do this quite naturally when they are "in the mood" at liberty? I see my Arab do it quite often, and I see Arabs in shows at liberty who seem quite capable of the right frame without any human interfering. I am pretty unknowledgeable about dressage training but I would say the challenge would be to get a horse to do what they do naturally, unconstrained, but with a rider on their back and on cue. Collection to me seems to have more to do with the attitude of the horse than driving or constraining their energy. Why would that require a bit? I just have this feeling that horses do all this stuff in spite of the aids people use rather than because of them.

Marlene, you are right about the Arabs!  I have often watched with utter amazement at Arabs playing, often thinking "gee, I'm glad they don't do that under saddle, I'd be off!" 

I have come up with a hypothesis that dressage exists to get other breeds of horses to move like Arabs do naturally without the specialized physical training (obvious exceptions of some Iberian horses, they can play like that too, just not as springy usually.) 

I do know that it is harder to get an Arabian into a good Forward Seat movement than any other breed I've ridden, I have to convince the Arabs to move their heads down and poke out their noses!  Their mouths are so sensitive, their jawbones so far apart, and their mitbahs (throatlatch, poll, 1st two cervical vertebrae) so flexible that it is the dickens to get them to accept "normal" FS contact.  Most Forward Seat riders do not like Arabs, I view them as the supreme challenge, in the FS way of riding if an Arab reliably accepts the bit with a relaxed jaw the rider's hands are very light and very, very good.  I find with my MS that they tend to prefer bitless on sagging reins though they are kind enough and patient enough to allow me to use a bit with contact, IF I am good and listen to everything they say! 

Thanks jackie, I just didnt get the FS as an abbreviation.  And I am heartily believe in the Caprilli seat, the US 'ruled the world' with jumping with they stuck with it (under Jack LeGoff)!!!!  As someone who worked with him, I know the work well, and he did also believe in collection, as did Gunner Andersen (who was a teacher long term of George Morris) and who I rode ith as well.  But all those peeps taught a stable outside connection to allow the (inside leg) to control the outside shoulder (for QUICK turns).  And horses should maintain the same tempo in a turn, not slow down and then speed up.  For what it is worth I know of two riders with MS, and one still rides FEI and is very traditional, and I have taught a young lady with spina bifida as well.

Poll flexions (first high/light) then the lightes of lateral flexion is the key to the mouth before ever mounting.  It has taken numerous horses from clenched jaws to softly chewing and swallowing with very basic riders.  It absolutely is NOT meant to be used with a low/closed posture, that causes the horse to brace against the hand (like a 5th leg).  And many try to flex laterally first (often by problematically sawing l/r) before the horse is up/open first.

I appreciate that you can get both rammener, and once or twice ressambler upon occasion.  That is a tribute to your recognizing it. as well.  It is helpful to now that a brisk transition/halt will lift the horse up and cause the hindquarters to fold.  And the rammener you got was because of the release.  But then what?  How to you signal to the horse that it is allowed to chew fdo?  The steps are SO interlaced.

Marlene, a horse should not be 'driven into the bridle' in any case.  A bridle should first be just a connection with the rider w/o flexion.  Up open active just as in liberty.  Even if one uses side reins, they are merely connected, and when ridden the mouth is only steadily held.   But when we sit upon it the balance changes because the line changes at our whims.  So, how to develop the horse to the full degree of what it does free.  For sure allowing the horse to be upright/free/ifv/moving.  And flexion comes over time, first laterally from bended lines, and over time longitudinally.  In order to collect (amplitude of stride upward vs ground covering flatter extensions) the horse has to learn how to flex and compress its joints in the hindlegs).  and this happens over time.  The individual bits allow for great finesse.  Remember that the odgs did use draw reins on cavesons for lateral flexibility, they spent way more hours than any of us will contemplate observing the horses.  The nuance of placing the horse, encouraging a balance in mm simply takes more than bitless can do.  We see that in the vid which started this discussion.

Alan, I have judged HC, and that is a problematic piaffe (goat on a mountain top/forward over the front legs).  She studies what IS, but I am not sure if she has an idea about what should be.  It is GIGO.  As far as Deb, she is an expert at the Smithsonian on dinasaur movement and also has studied horses.  A rider she is not, an expert on movement imho she is.  That said, they are both aligned, but now they have to learn the next steps.  If you think that getting to FEI (for those who have not trained to high collection) is easy...it is NOT.

I would take Nancy Nicholson any time, she is a teacher/trainer/system analysis person who has spent about 25 years on horses alone, and has trained multiple horses to FEI.  While I agree with the negatives in the pix you post, please show us something to take its place (the grey with a hollowed back over caveletti is incorrect, and the youngsters in the field are nice beginners which are not abusing the horse, and the girl at the fairgrounds well that should be forgotten) but now move on and show us how the bend/collection is properly done in this.  

And the OP's video or Henriquet in a halter is not a horse TRAINED in that manner.

I love all horses and like the ease of training tbs/arabs/etc.  And I agree with jackie about training arabs (any horse with a high set neck, a thin throatlatch) HAVE to spent a longer period of time riding the horse out to the hand (in a bit or NOT)....they must spend time lower/longer to correctly develop the gaits.  This is where the need for properly lateral positioning is KEY to getting the horse to chew and stay out to the hand, yet VERY open, before training can continue.  Otherwise they have short neck/C3 highest point, often btv.  Kellog ranch knew this (earliest importers on the west coast).  And horses were much more the polish type ( a sport horse type ) vs the egpytian type which have been frightfully bred into a characture.

We can all agree that compressed and constrained horses are NOT collected.  But equally it does not just take a bit to create such a sin.  Holding and driving doesnt work and never has.  Equally letting a horse be hollow is not collection either.

(the grey with a hollowed back over caveletti is incorrect

Barnfrog: this statement is evidence of your inability to visually comprehend equine anatomy.  The back is not hollow, the shoulders are fully engaged the back is up and the hindquarters are thoroughly engaged.  Look at the white line drawn, it rests just under the saddle.........natural back line.  Then look at the white line drawn in the other image, an image of a licensed dressage judge..........the back is hollow.  And Totilas under Gal definitely had a hollow back as is seen in the irregular stride lengths and 4 beat trot.

If you think that getting to FEI (for those who have not trained to high collection) is easy...it is NOT.

This is not valid since all the dressage movements are done naturally by the horse.  It is the trainers/riders that impede the athletic ability of the horse to achieve the ridden movements.

Nothing could be further from the truth. I will repeat, I learn something new from the horse or rider or timing nuances almost every day, but it based upon proper balance, ease of reaction being shown to me.  It is from equitational nuances defining what is MOST correct.  ie People like Manelo Mendez have awakened obervations and abilities in shaping reshaping the horse for (greater) soundness IN MOVEMENT (taking lame horses and creating different movement) by sculpting with touches (of bamboo) which are mindboggling and vets are taking it up as well!!!  Anyone who does not learn from the truth of the horse every day is a fool.  Although a founder of the Portuguese National school he is not a big winner, he is a humble person who works with horses AND proves his points with almost every step.  Show me the results, and I will sign up.  Creations of beauty make the hair on the neck sign up, they reveal the master.  Peeps like PP can sell their rope halters and special bridles of all types and stick and books, but the truth is not in those items but in the work of the handler and their education.

I do not disrespect the years in bb, I see a use for it, but I have not yet seen it used in such a way to do more than basics.  That you will have to prove, you choose the way and the instrument, now show the results if you want believers. Myself, I just try to impart what i was entrusted with to the best of my ability. With my students their work with their horses under traditional principles advance them and the horse, the proof is their learning how to train effectively themselves, that is how tradition is passed on (or with dies because of lack of definition).  In order to earn respect in a given field (dressage not riding per se) there are touchstones of balance/collection/etc which MUST be met.  Not by one's own definition of xyz, but by time tested principles.  People like Nuno were handsomely respected in their day because the outcomes of their work (although the methods were different) fulfilled these principles.  Same for Manolo/PK/von N/Andersen/Frau Franke/etc.

In order to discuss the outcomes of training we MUST have the same meanings for the same words. It is easy for outsiders to ignore the words of far greater experts than any of us will ever be.  Even Thirty or forty years ago all the disciplines seemed to have the same equitational standards, noted the same ideas of collection, had like definitions. Without perfected equitational alignment and timing of aids, there is little conversation. Those things been muddied down. Now it is a free for all with lack of articulated principles or commonality of purpose.  It is what has allowed peeps like AvG and SJ to become prophets.  No one says this is not tradition, and it is not right because of these missing elements.  Well I am old enough, and perhaps stupid enough, to try to ask for order. To ask questions, and to keep asking questions.  Perhaps it is an american sloppiness to not read (guidelines/tradition/investigative works/etc), just go do a few clinics and call it good.  Peeps want to wear give clothes or use a piece of equipment rather than perfect technique to supposedly make the horse's life better.  Easier to throw away tradition en toto in search of a panacea rather than ride with more insight every day and accept slow progress.

I agree with you dbliron on a lot of what you have to say.  IF I did not have MS I would probably be facing dressage determined to do it, double bridle, spurs and all!

Working effectively and non-abusively with a double bridle is a high skill, no doubt about that, I know, I've used one off and on through the decades and I never got beyond a most basic level, but my horses usually accepted it with good grace.  Just 3 years ago my hands were still good enough that my riding teacher let me introduce one of her horses to the double and I got to ride with it for 3 months.  Alas, I can't do it anymore.  I see dressage as a way of developing a skilled rider, a rider skilled enough to get very good performances no matter what gear they do or do not use and on whatever type horse.

Barnfrog, I am so glad to read you say that timing is everything.  Until I learned this my riding was, at best, mediocre though decent (non-abusive.)  Learning the timing is probably the only reason why I can still ride independently instead of being led around.   

It is interesting that peeps now thing that rider w/o a saddle or in a wire (doing things the horse already knows) is a big deal, it is something that all of us used to do as kids. Fun/playing, but not with any particular degree of nuance.  But one only has to see the amount of this type of riding in the typical european circus (or the old equitana from throughout the world) to know that we really do know most of the capibilites of the horse.  Horsemen all enjoy watching GOOD training, even if out of their field.  But good training plays on the nature of the horse to make learning and SCOPE developed.

The number of tense horses today are the result of a couple of things imho: riding without clear theory/methodology, and riders coming to this sport late in life who are mislead into quick fixes and teachers who purport to teach 'on the bit'/quick framing and longitudinal flexion.

Good training IS 'natural' dressage, it plays on the nature's full use of the body and mind. If riders are not taught basic concepts as to how lateral flexibility (ie very basic level that riding a circle allows proper use of the hindlegs which allows for longitudinal flexion over time), or taught HOW TO APPLY EXERCISES THERAPUTICALLY they are merely riding lines by route without TIMING or INTENTION.

The four ecoles (srs/cadre noir/portuguese and spanish schools) ALL ride with the same intentions (collection) and traditionally.  They also ALWAYS work on being properly seated.  And I agree following the work of peeps like Sjef only produces a grotesque characture of dressage, but now so many peoples eyes are accustomed to this HIGHLY tensioned work as 'good'.