And, adding to Barbera's post, the judge mush pic a nimber for the score, which will always be subjuctive. It's not like in Showjumping, 4 penalties for a rail down, it's a given when the rail is down it's not almost down or a little bit down.
I think if you don't understand why dressage cant be judged objectively, then you need to go and judge some tests, you'll soon find out.

THere is a booklet from the FEI now (the FEI judge's handbook) http://www.dressagejudges.com/FEI.htm (toward bottom of page) which gives ALL the numbers with the importance of factors put in....what is needed for insufficient, what is needed for satisfactory, what is needed for a very good.  Very straight forward, and although it is 40 euros, and something that everyone should have (along of course with the FEI rules (or at lower levels the USEF which are the fei rules with some national effects)). I recommend that EVERYONE buy it (as well as always keep up to day with the changes in the actual rules and directives EN TOTO.

I do think that the next generation has a problem and that is dealing with equivocation which has started with the 'globalization' directive of the fei, and under the guidance of Lette's reign. Dressage should be about TRAINING and it is unfortunate that "there is the general tendency to place horses with exceptional paces higher than less spectacular but better ridden ones."   And they have even more of a problem in dealing with the abuse directives (which are so mealy).

When the everyday rider sees what win they attempt to copy it (and that usually means the anomalies of the winners' and indeed "This puts dressage in general in danger, not only at the highest levels."  The consumers are not educated, or educated by someone who has little to no depth in training (the winners are often those who buy trained horses rather than make their own) of various breeds/etc.  They ride good movers and muddy the gaits rather than have the ability to make good movers out of plain brown wrappers

I had a learner judge sit with mean and we discussed this during breaks.  They are the ones who will be judging, and for the most part they will be judging 40 year olds  people just starting in the sport but buying nice horses.  In times past these riders would have stayed home and taught first to take pleasure in perfecting basics before they attempt to show their training to an evaluator.  (And no teacher/trainer would allow their work to be presented half done). Now this work is to be judged, and generally the scores are based on degrees of submission, which now means flexion, which often is too much because the effects of the seat and proper contact are missing.  More equivocation, make it all satisfactory (6).

For SURE "There is a gap between what is actually happening in dressage and the FEI rules and this is the point that should be discussed. The future of dressage strongly depends upon how riders are judged as well as on how the eye of spectators is formed by what is presented wrongly but scoring highly.”   Once 100% submission is 'the thing' (under Lette), then traditional training is over. The ways to 'false' submission which reveals itself in the (lack of) purity of gaits are legend.  A horse must be free to show its balance, the effect of the rider's aids on its balancing rod (aka via the neck).  When that is silenced, there is a problem.

Back to the OP, certainly the background/depth of knowledge/ability of the judge plays into how they interpret the rules.  When we have judges which are agressive riders who are regularly reported, then they will be looser in hiding their heads as to what is agressive riding (ie in warm ups/bleeding mouths).  It is #$$&#*($ difficult to have a perfected seat (a la Reiner Klimke or Waetjen), it requires taking ownership of one's work rather than blaming the horse (or needing a better saddle or different breeches).  It requires judges like Schultheis who once said to a (well decorated high level rider) friend in his rider score on a particular horese: 3..comment: you have single handedly taken the gaits from this hose!  THAT meant back to the drawing board as to the training of that horse.

IS judging subjective?  When I went to the presentation of the 4ecoles (srs/cadre noir/national schools of spain and portugal) the work was all the same with different nuances.  Which means their 'good' IS objective and meets the same standards.

But what has happened is that dressage at the highest levels is really a dressage 'materiale' class.  As long as there is (ie) the right number of tempis then sufficient+scores are given, the quality of them (straightness) is often ignored.  And speed of tempo is now replacing impulsion (and it is used to sustain submissive postures).

However, all those evaluations require a CONSIDERABLE depth of understanding of what creates what results in training. What is to most valued, what comes first, etc.  It means more than latching onto a phrase (ie poll highest point or face ifv) or looking tempo rather than knowing what are the elements of impulsion, etc  and valueing it above others (ie sustaining purity of gait is job one).

So, we go back to times where most riders made their own fei horses themselves and who were a result of LONG term apprenticeships (10-20 years), to those who ride a year here and a year there on previously trained horses and have NO idea how to start a horse properly (no longitudinal flexion does NOT come first).  IF those who become judges are now those 'winners', then the evaluation process IS flawed because they are telling others how to evaluate their own training based on very shallow knowledge (or knowledge they do not have).

A reference to what?

I would prefer to continue to present my own comments at judge's forums, and in fei letters.  So, I would prefer to do those things on my own.  I appreciate your asking however.  For me, we all must support people in the sport like Carde, Hans Meyer zu Strohen, or Kyra Kyrkland (as a member of the IDRA) in ther works instead. Otherwise, such discussion is ignored.  And even then, as someone who has seen how things have morphed in the last 40years or so, I think the answer lies elsewhere.

We must offer an viable OPTIONS.  It might come down to dividing the FEI dressage into materiale fei dressage (I know, sort of an oxymoron), and traditional dressage.  Think about how one can do that, know that your points have been stated ad infinitum in europe (in mags like St Georg/Reiter Revue/Piaff) already. Breeders have to be contacted as well.  Ideate on that.

And I guess the question really is: can traditional training continue without long term apprenticeship?  Personally I think the answer is in creating a group of riders/horses who go out and win everything in a given year (from beginning to GP)....but that takes $$$ and almost Odgs.  PERHAPS if Mathias can take Toto to gold it might make a statement. And Laura will be the token traditionalist (although she is not) because of who she trains with, and she is the other option for gold.  People 'follow winners' and what they perceive they are doing correctly.  So, perhaps Klaus will have an impact there???

It is also important for everyone to READ the CHANGES in the directives.   But more importantly what the entire package should 'look like' and how important purity of gaits (esp walk) is.

I don't think you will ever get a real objective judging in any sport that relies on human beings to evaluate performance.
You can make it less volatile by defining criterias but in the end, judging high level peformance in events such as world championships will have subjective elements. When do you draw the 8 or 9 for a specific lesson? On top of that the differences between the top performers will be small. So little differences will decide the ranking.

I think we can well live with some subjective ratings. What concerns me more is biased judgement or mistakes due to insuffcient experience. In international sport we have judges coming from a limited background in riding and from countries where they have limited opportunities to watch high level performances.

I call it limited background if someone has participated in Olympics just by buying well educated horses and taking lessons at top trainers. I have nothing aginst those people participating in the competition. Let them do it. Its their business, sometimes their dream, and it was certainly their money, ...and no matter how much money they paid, they still need to learn to ride the horse. that's ok,- but judging is different.

I think judging should require years of experience educating horses and riders. If you have never started to educate a horse from the very beginning, you miss an essential part of the knowledge. However, not many people did that successfully. - but I remember an interniew with one of my old riding instructors (he was an instructor at the ridng school in Hannover before WWII) Question:Can a woman train a horse from beginning to Grand Prix? Answer: Yes, but I don't want to marry her.
Well, that was 1972.

Anyway, I think its no point trying to fiddle around with judging regulations, having 7 (by god 7 why not 20? why not making it a poll asking the spectators, that would at least be a democratic process) judges instead of 5 or things like that. Quality of judgement does not increase by asking more people who don't know the answer.

Its expertise, long time expertise and excellent horsemanship that we need.

ciao
bernd

-- Edited by berndride on Wednesday 6th of July 2011 04:19:36 AM

Ah yes, the judges have rendered their subjective opinions in unison.........

Objectively
being the object or goal of one's efforts or actions.
not influenced by personal feelings, interpretations, or prejudice; based on facts; unbiased: an objective opinion.
intent upon or dealing with things external to the mind rather than with thoughts or feelings,

The descriptions contained in the rules are 'stipulations' that are 'mandated', so an individual's subjectivity must not be used in judging.

Subjectivity is clear from the judges when a horse presents flash instead of class such as Totilas.

Figarocubed wrote:

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Goatgirl hit the nail on the head.

Spirithorse/Dragonharte is too subjective to realize it!

---

 Well, Figarocubed;

You can believe that all you want, hwowever, I have individuals more experienced than you or I whom agree with me.  

Hi All,

I thought it would be a good time to pipe in here with my own two cents!

On a non-horsey note, I do agree with Goatgirl about there being no such thing as objective news. I have said that for years and I'm so glad someone who studied journalism is of the same view!

Regarding the judges, just my opinion, but I do believe objectivity is something we won't be seeing, for many of the same reasons we won't be seeing objective news reporting.

All of which makes Spirithorse's objective of getting the judges to re-evaluate what they are seeing at the top levels, and how they judge it, such an important issue.

Let's keep this discussion going (respectfully, please! :))

-- Edited by Barnmice Admin on Monday 11th of July 2011 05:35:40 PM

indeed - the two pictures are quite different - unfortunately there is still room for subjectivity - depending on how the judge has been trained, and educated. One judge might very well look at the grey and see the nose ever so slightly pokey and take exception with it - one may see the chestnut's incorrect neck and the rider's position and say --- take exception with it - one may see the hand positions as incorrect -- - there are numerous miniscule aspects that can twig something in a judge's mind --and sub-conciously or unconciously affect the score of the rider....it is human nature unfortunately...and therefore it is unlikely that dressage judges will ever be able to look at a picture and say without personal influence - whether a movement truly deserves a 6.5 or a 7....etc.. That said - again the judge is someone whose understanding and views are the result of hard work and study - so they need to be considered and weighed...dressage is a sport in which we never stop learning, and striving...- We can learn something from all -

but I honestly believe that expecting objectivity from a human being....--- well - I don't think it's likely...

cool - thanx barn frog!! that was interesting. (Well there I be - I learned something new!!)

I agree completely figarocubed -- whenever I've been at dressage competitions - when I'm done and just watching others - I'll watch not only the riders but also the judges and their scribes...-- I can't imagine the mess the score-sheet would be if the judge was over-thinking - second guessing..etc...-

and I went back after barn-frogs comments and looked at the pictures more carefully and can see now what Barnfrog and Figarocubed noticed immediately......blech I should learn to pay attention more carefully

You've gone out of your way again to find a really ugly photo of Anky.

I have great respect for Ms. Gurney, have ridden tests in front of her and have watched her give clinics, but there are things I could pick apart in her photo, too. But I won't. Spirithorse, I encourage you to enroll in the judge's training program offered by USDF. That way you could infiltrate the enemy's stronghold. You would also learn firsthand how difficult a judge's job is and what they go through to simply qualify to judge at even the lowliest schooling show. Or offer to scribe at a show some time. But you'll have to restrain yourself from arguing with the judge!

Once again, Spirithorse, you are emphasizing the head position. As Walter Farley remarked in one of his books, "You don't ride heads". Overbent and BTV is NOT the standard. This only exists in your imagination. Look at the structure of the two horses above. Very different creatures. One purpose bred, the other a TB who grew too large to race.

Judging dressage will never be completely OBJECTIVE no matter how you try to re-educate judges. Purely objective judging is only possible in timed events or things such as show jumping, where jumping faults and speed are the criteria. Subjectivity, no matter how hard you try, no matter how much you whine and complain, WILL continue to exist. And in your case, Spirithorse, you'd accuse any judge of subjective judging if he or she didn't agree with YOUR opinions of things. How objective is that? I've observed judges -- as a scribe, a competitor, and a spectator, and I see people who take their responsibilities seriously, who work hard at judging fairly.

Please tell me, how DOES one ride a stretchy/chewy circle or a free walk with the poll the highest point?

hi goatgirl: i couldn't agree more with your husband. i explain to my non horsey friends who are canadian, that dressage judging is truly like figure skating. and unfortunately, they understand what i am implying!!! i see it here in nz all the time. and it saddens me. i am qualifying as a judge, and show my homebred and trained horses. i go for personal bests, or concentrate on a particular movement. if i place or get a nice score, especially from a known testy judge, it is a bonus.  but this is an expensive proposition!! cheers.

Lets keep the topic going sans personal attacks, if not I will have to close the topic. Thanks 

How does one ride a stretchy/chewy circle or a free walk with the poll the highest point? When going fdo the horse or doing free walk the horse opens the throatlatch, so the middle of the neck is not the highest point, and the horse is 'arching' out to the hand/chest lifted. In free walk (not just stretching after a work out) the mouth really should not go lower than the point of the shoulders (sustained) because then the 'anchor' will put the horse onto the forehand.  Fdo is meant to be a test of whether the horse is seeking and hand and chewing fdo (mobility of the jaw and the horse following the hand).  As such in a test is not how low you go, but rather sustaining contact and following the hand/opening the throatlatch while keeping energy.  As an exercise fdo should only be done for a couple of circles, and back to work.  The more trained the horse, the better the balance, the more it should be able to go lower and more open.

I agree with with Jackie, it is a clash of cultures/depth of training.  A horse which is truly collected/in self carraige will stay ifv. But the rider has to have a developed/independent seat in order for that to occur.  And yes the horse on occasional will close the throatlatch too much (in a hh/etc), and that is WHY the rules are written as they are to allow momentary losses of balance (and also WHY the idea of 100% submission of the riders de jour is so problematic and lacking in virtue).

TB breeding IS a LARGE part of todays popular dressage horses breeding.  The huge movement of the forelegs is not just the 'wearing the collar side' it is from TENSION. But problematically, those horses then also become very hot when ridden in a trapped/low/closed manner...hence the tension.

It is NO harder to keep a given breed ifv.  Longer necks and thin throatlatches (ie friesan/arab) are THE most difficult because they are weak and easily take to or behind the vertical.  They must spend a longer period of time being ridden lower but open.  A higher headed horse must be ridden more lowered and open as well.  In the end proper carriage is a result of correct balance NO matter the breed.

Collectability is the result of proper balance and compression of ALL the hindleg joints as well.  Self carriage must be CONSTANTLY reward to be sustained, and that means FAR MORE than an outline of the neck without sufficient/proper hindleg joints flexions.

In the end a horse is a horse, and traditional training 'works' for all of them.  Since I have to work with all breeds I find very little difference.  The difference in the schools (ie cadre noir/srs/schools of spain and portugal/even traditional vaquero/etc) are very minimal because they want the same end points.  How they get there, there are nuances, but they too are minimal imo.

Figarocubed:

I sent the image of your avatar to a vet friend who also competes in dressage for her opinion.   I was surprised when she agreed with my perspective of your presentation.

You have your horse overbent and behind the vertical.

Rein tension clearly demonstrates that it is your rein contact causing this, and not the horse attempting evasion.

And something she pointed out to me, you have the glands and muscles behind the jaw compressed into a bulge.

I have just recently had the opportunity to work with a well schooled and very experienced rider with upper level experience.   My lack of knowledge and experience made dramatic changes in her rein connection, in her seat connection and in her seat connection.   She was most pleased.

So your opinions based solely upon no working knowledge of my experience and knowledge really do not carry much weight....on the other hand, the opinions of Barnfrog and Jackie and others do carry credibitlity and weight.

 

Getting back to the topic...

I have been entrenched in the world of competitive dressage for many years and I think you can compare dressage judging to judging for skating, dance, gymnastics, etc. It is subjective and political. Sorry Allan, as long as we are all human, that will never change.

That doesn't mean there aren't some super, well-meaning and educated judges out there, but if you want to compete in dressage (I'm sure other equestrian disciplines as well) you have to accept the subjective and political judging. It's part of competing.

IMO, what should not be subjective on the show grounds are situations where the horse is bleeding, is being beaten or otherwise abused in the warm-up, is being ridden with an over-tightened noseband, nostrils flaring as the horse tries to get some air, or when the rider is actually standing in the stirrups to add more pull on the curb, as we saw in the recent reining video.

Allan I respectfully disagree.

I do think if we want to compete in dressage we have to accept the subjectivity and politics.

I don't think it's a matter of having the right or not having the right. Humans bring their humanity to every scenario, every interaction. Even the most dedicated judges trying to follow the rules as closely as possible are subjective.

It's part of showing dressage. It's part of figure skating, it's part of hunter classes and Western pleasure, it's part of gymnastics. Where there are scores that are chosen by human beings, there will be subjectivity.

With that being my point of view, I would also add that subjectivity opens the door to influencing a judge's perception and judgment of what he/she sees and judges to be correct - and for dressage, if there were positive influences making inroads that could be quite exciting. Fashions change all the time - precisely because what we judge to look great is constantly evolving and being influenced by outside forces. So can it be for dressage - precisely because we can count on the subjectivity of human beings!

I do have an opinion about judging and the rules. First, I do not see the rules as 'must do at all costs', rather I see them as guidelines for the judges. The entire concept of showing your horse is to present yourself, your horse to another human who will give you their opinion that is based on how they interpret the rules for whatever division they are judging. And I find nothing wrong with this. You go to many shows so you can get a variety of opinions, that is what makes showing interesting.
What I do find is that people get so obsessed with the rules and too focused on one of the horses body parts, that they miss the development of the rest of the horse. Or they focus so much on how the horse must look per the rules that a lot of the joy that comes with little accomplishments is lost and the horse is not rewarded.

I do not agree with the constant focus on the horses head, there is so much more. I may be way off base to several of you but this is what I see ( oh my, I am going to be subjective!)- Look at a gaited horse, but only look at their head and neck. Find a photo and only look at the head. Most of them seem to meet the dressage rule for the position of the head. They are not btv, but rather vertical or slightly ifv. Poll is highest point. So far, so good. But when you look at whole horse, there is little self carriage, little hind end engagement. Yes, that is the nature of the gait but my point here is the whole horse must be looked at, judged, evaluated, not just the head. Most TWH have a rear end that is not well defined, rather seems like it is hitching a ride, lacking impulsion. And yes, gaited horses have their own dressage 'rules' , movements based on gaiting but honestly, I think they can do a standard lower level test with ease if trained properly, and I have done this. I have ridden them and shown them for over 30 years. As of 15 years ago, I started training them in dressage to create a more muscular rear and to teach them how to engage their hind end.

I am not totally sure if this thread is just about FEI level ( from photos posted, seems to be the case) but for lower levels, I most definitely feel that if judging seems to be subjective, then YAY! Most of those showing at lower levels are learning the rules and are not perfect but still want to show and get feedback from the judge. They know they are not fitting inside the perfect little dressage box but working towards that so they do need some subjective feedback, otherwise their scores would be in the 40s!. IF lower level rides had to be just like the rules, dressage wold be discouraging and scare riders away since they were not 'perfect'. They want the miles and the experience while they work towards the ideal dressage frame.

I will get on my subjective soap box once more and add that those critical of judges would have a more valid opinion if they would present themselves to be judged. It seems like those with the most critical and negative opinions of judging, do not compete, do not support competition nor do they provide photos or videos of themselves for others to view. Why is this? I would have more respect for those who protest current judging if they would present themselves riding and share their photos/videos to support what they feel is correctness and adhering to the defined rules. I think that would be a more positive approach

Hi,
I think we should seperate the issue.

One side is biased judgement, like a judge giving higher marks to his home country riders or lower to those riders direct competitors. That is a constant nuisance in many sports and I think we should do the same as in gymnastics, which is eliminating the highest and the lowest score. I know that the international dressage commitee has rejected that, on the grounds that judges don't want to be eliminated, but so what.

The other issue is wrong judgement. That can only be fixed by better judges. So its a training and experience issue.

there is a limit as to what you can do with formal descriptions on how something should be done, like head position, number of strides, number of steps in piaffe etc etc.. The problem here is that you don't judge discrete events like in show jumping. You have to judge a complex appearance where some things will be good, some mediocre, some poor within the same lesson of the same horse and you have to give it a discrete score.

For example the book says you have to do 10 steps piaffe at point G. But now you will see someone do only 9 steps but those pretty well and another one does 10 steps, but poorly and another one does 11 steps mediocre. None of all will do every thing right, the head position, the bending of the hind quarters, the position of the rider, the forearm of the front legs etc. etc. etc. still as a judge you have to decide within a few seconds what score you give. That will have to be subjective to some extent and it will need training and experience to do it well.

It is the responsibility of the FEI and the dressage specialists to see that the training and experience is there. They have to amke sure to select the right people and they have to put the necessary controls in place to make sure the overall guidelines of the sport are clearly understood and respected. I think we have a problem here because many people in the FEI may not have that experienece and its difficult to get it.

-- Edited by berndride on Wednesday 13th of July 2011 06:09:47 AM

Figarocubed wrote:

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 In the OP's world, no weight is given, apparently, to the activity of the hind legs, the lift of the back, the overall balance.

---

 Figarocubed:

Here you go with your irrational assumptions.

What is fun for me is that you have no idea just what I believe and teach!

I just taught an experienced dressage rider with German schooling a few simple techniques that softened her rein contact, softened her leg contact, softened her seat contact.  Result was a more forward moving horse with the hindquarters thoroughly engaged.

So....I ask you for the last time....stop making your arrogant assumptions about something you know nothing about.

Hard to tell, as there was no dialog, just silence as I recall.

Not irrational or arrogant, Spirithorse. I've seen your videos on YouTube over the years. Nothing I've seen on those videos convince me that you know what you're talking about. You were probably smart NOT to have any dialog or commentary on those recent videos.

And anyone who questions YOUR assumptions eventually gets labelled "arrogant", "ignorant" or "irrational". In my book, THAT'S arrogance.

You have a bone to pick with competitive dressage, the FEI, USDF and USEF. You will not be happy unless everyone else is in lockstep with your theories. Not gonna happen. Too bad for you.

Now, for the last time (OK, THAT'S a lie!) what are your credentials as a competitor, a trainer or a judge? Are you a member of ANY of the organizations you criticize? If you are, why have you not tried to work within the system by obtaining judging credentials and practicing what you preach?

berndride wrote:Here it shows what judges are looking at but of course it gives you no insight into what mental processes in the persons head are leading to which score. The fact that someone is looking longer at the forelegs than on the hind legs does not necessarily mean that he/she will give a higher or lower score........The study shows that judges are looking at all parts of the horse and are trying to get a complete picture.

Exactly.  WHAT are the judges valuing??? And WHY??