Superb Jochen Schleese Article on What's Going on in the Dressage World

Barbara F · Grand Prix

Superb Jochen Schleese Article on What's Going on in the Dressage World

Figarocubed · Advanced

Love that photograph!

barnfrog · Advanced

Anyone want to discuss the 'said' article that got JS upset?

http://content.yudu.com/Library/A1ralv/2011JanuaryFebruaryW/resources/76.htm

Does this link work???

-- Edited by barnfrog on Tuesday 23rd of August 2011 12:27:14 PM

-- Edited by barnfrog on Tuesday 23rd of August 2011 12:28:43 PM

spirithorse · Advanced

Barnfrog;

I do believe there is validity to the article. I do believe that inappropriate genitic breeding is creating the false trot gaits.

'Flash versus Class' has become the standard, simply because FEI will NOT enforce the rules.

If individuals want the high stepping Saddlebred gaits in dressage then they should enter their horses in Saddlebred competitions. The gait is not natural to the equine species and therefore should not be allowed in FEI competitions.

And more importantly, FEI needs to step up and demand the presentation of the correct gaits. This should gradually remove the false trot gaits being demonstrated.

barnfrog · Advanced

Validity in which article? JS or Trakener one. I think JS is correct. But the false trots ARE the inappropriate training. Take a look at Toto in his 5 yo FEI test.....his trot IS pure, for both years. I agree that the gaits need to be score appropriately, and for purity.

But interestingly enough I will bet the chestnut in the JS article will NOT land pure, but will land with the diagonal pair AFTER the single foreleg because it is compressed. We had a youngster horse which did the long side in 11 trot strides and 8 canter ones, but he did not climb so much which is a product of being shortened early on.

-- Edited by barnfrog on Tuesday 23rd of August 2011 08:23:10 PM

spirithorse · Advanced

JS has written a great article.

The purity of the gaits should not be written for genetic breeding programs. The purity of gaits was written for normal horses.

So Toto 'was' correct, then that means that his schooling altered the trot gait to the impure gait that he has been demonstrating recently. And if schooling morphed a pure trot into an impure trot then that should be addressed by appropriate scores.

You think JS is upset.....I am as upset has a horse with a dozen BIG horse flies bugging it. FEI is self-destructing the art of dressage. The sport of dressage is not a sport like other equine venues, it is an art form.

And you make a great point about the chestnut in the photograph.

Figarocubed · Advanced

Unless someone can provide a videotape or sequential photographs of the above referenced horse, i guess we'll never know for sure, will we?

barnfrog · Advanced

.......The purity of gaits was written for normal horses.........
.........And if schooling morphed a pure trot into an impure trot then that should be addressed by appropriate scores.

The gaits scores (purity and freedom) was written for ALL horses, it is the touchstone of correct training. And I agree the scores should be appropriate for the training, not some bizarre interpretation of 'materiale classes'.

Jackie Cochran · Advanced

I have been recently studying old dressage masters, Pluvinel,Newcastle and Gueriniere.

I think that the controlled kick (croupade for Saumur) is what the old masters used to build up the strength of the forehand since it was the one dressage air above the ground where all the weight of the horse ends up on the forehand. This mostly ended when dressage riders deserted the airs above the ground because if the horse does not go above the ground he does not need the forehand strong enough to elevate the forehand. Then too much emphasis was put on just lowering the hind quarter so the horse looked collected even though it did not elevate the forehand at all. Now, with Rollkur, dressage riders have finally realized that you must strengthen the forehand too, since Rollkur loads the forehand, as does riding behind the vertical. Because of Rollkur the horse's shoulder sling muscles are pumped up and the horses are elevating the forehand. Unfortunately, unlike the Saumur croupade, the hind quarters are not strengthened with Rollkur, so the hind end does not get strong enough to carry the weight and the hind legs trail behind instead of bending properly.

IF the horse's hind end was carrying weight properly their hind legs would go up and down more (with flexed joints, the engagement of the croup). Nowadays the emphasis seems to be on the front to back engagement of the hind leg which is different and not what the classical riders trained for. Hind leg back to front engagement is for longer strides and speed, up and down engagement of the hind legs is for collection.

This is the main reason why in competition dressage horses the poll is not higher than the top of the neck. When the emphasis is on how far foward the hind leg comes the croup/hind legs joints are prevented from flexing properly to carry weight.

So instead of learning to ride and train properly now the competitors are ALL FOR changing the rules of dressage so they will be rewarded for their improper riding and training.

If the rider does not want to train for the controlled kick the solution is simple, start jumping your dressage horses, preferably more than two feet. Both the take-off and landing phases of the jump strengthen the fore hand.

Queenrider · Advanced

Look at what has happened to Thoroughbreds over the last decades. Frequently horses break down (why they break down is a whole another article) and are immediately used for breeding to recoup some of the costs. Thoroughbreds are beeing turned into sprinters with not enough bone. Frequently you see yearlings with toothpicks for cannon bones at the sales. They are producing yearlings with not enough temperament to make it as riding horses after their racing career is over. All this does is produce supply for the meat industry.
You can argue that warmblood breeders are producing horses that only a pro can ride. The horse's gaits are too big for the average AA to sit too.
QH have been ruined by too much TB blood plus all the other problems with too small feet and metabolic diseases and short striding western pleasure horses, etc. There is now a Foundation QH registry to try and return the breed to its quality roots.
Many show dog breeds are health nightmares guaranteed to keep vets in business and keep their owners poor.
At least they haven't ruined cats yet!
Bad breeding practices are a common problem.