"On the Bit You Cannot Have it both ways"

spirithorse · Advanced

"On the Bit You Cannot Have it both ways"

Lori · Yearling

I don't know, maybe I'm missing something but I wasn't aware that the "on the bit" frame is not understood by riders and judges. I read the article and, I have to say, I agreed with Mr. Nigili's(or whatever his name is) definitions of "on the bit". In my experience judges are looking at a lot of things in a dressage test and certain things score higher than others. They're looking at things like accuracy, impulsion, relaxation, rhythm etc. If the horse scores well in theses categories then chances are he's on the bit. And if a horse isn't correctly on the bit, the rider may still score well for whatever reason but it will be noted that they need to work on contact. the problem with defining something like that is that all horses are different and some may need a light contact, others may need more weight in your hands and some may need different weight in your hands at different times depending on their balance, fitness etc. That's just my two cents.

spirithorse · Advanced

Lori

There is a difference between having a horse on the bit or more correctly in the hand and the stipulated 'on the bit' frame from the rules of dressage.

Mr. Niggli in his position as judge and as Chairman of the FEI Dressage Committee was in the position to change the description of the rule through the judging.

"On the Bit" frame requires that the poll be the highest point at all times according to the level and that the "HEAD" be in front of the vertical. That means that the underside of the lowest point of the jaws must be in front of the vertical line downward from the poll.

Accuracy of the movements cannot be attained if the primary stipulated head/neck frame is not obtained because the neck, withers and shoulders of the horse will be constrained.

barnfrog · Advanced

You really are incorrect about this. Niggli is the last head of the fei who actually judged by the rules and promoted ifv riding. The proximate cause of the situation the world is in is the head of the fei who followed him: Eric Lette. It is under Lette that RKed horses started to win, it is under him that horses with 'error free' tests placed in front of well ridden horses, and it is under him that there was a push for 'globalization'. Niggli actually wrote an open letter to Reiter Revue about the precise show (the tipping point?) where the RKed horse won and this happened, and he was told to shut up (as retired head), and so he did. His book came out the month after Lette was no longer head of the FEI. He was very articulate on correct training and especially judging, perhaps only second to Reiner in that regard. And he did NOT give away scores, the push to up scores for 'error free' tests vs correct training came AFTER him.

I do agree however that the pix chosen should have been clearer, but the handout to all judges about correct 'chewing the reins from the hand' (aka fdo) was his, and is still used. You need to know much more history before you place blame!

spirithorse · Advanced

Barnfrog....
I place the start with Mr. Niggli because of his own words and drawings he created.
If what you say is true about him, then why did he create the book that displays the contrary positions? A book read by dressage enthusiasts all over the world and to whom the words and images impart a message.

The article I wrote is based upon Mr. Niggli's words and drawings wherein there are two different head/neck positions clearly demonstrated which arise from his perspective.
That is especially directly noted in the drawings of the two different "type" horses at passage.

So, what is needed now then is the clarification wherein the 'on the bit' head/neck frame which stipulates 'head' in front of the vertical should be clarified to state that 'the underside of the lowest point of the jaws must be in front of the vertical line descending from the poll'.

Think that would work?

Figarocubed · Advanced

Could you demonstrate yourself what you mean and post the videos online?

There is so much more to dressage, training and competition than the "frame" (a word I detest, as it brings to mind the rigid positions ASB and WP horses are made to assume). Your obsession with this one aspect shows that you advocate riding front to rear, incorrectly.

I like to change my horse's posture while training -- for suppleness, relaxation & stretch and the benefits of these. We frequently go from a working posture to LDO or LDR. I like to ride him LDO through transitions up and down. Riding always in a "frame" creates stiff, tense horses.

Dressage, like many other sports, seems to go through trends or fashions. Unfortunate, but not world-ending, so long as there are riders and trainers who strive to do it right. Believe it or not, they do exist.

spirithorse · Advanced

Figarocubed,

I agree about the word frame but for now that is how it is expressed. Below is H. Gurney in 84 and the lowest point of the underside of the jaw is as far back as it should be. I do have an obsession with this as it is a fundamental requirement for the freedom of the forehand of the horse.

The reason for this is, when the neck has the arc and the head is in front of the vertical, the neck, wither and shoulder muscles are correctly engaged not constrained. There is a false concept that when the head goes up the back hollows, that is not true. The muscles of the neck connect to the withers and shoulders.....not a working relationship with engagement of the back.

A rider can attain this without pulling on the bit/bits in a constant pressure. Lighter contact with vibration of the reins as attention aids helps the horse relax the forehand muscle structure. The horse will naturally bring his head into the position that allows him to see forward. We as riders inhibit this view when the head gets into the vertical. See the second image.

Figarocubed · Advanced

Sorry, point not made. Much as I respect Ms. Gurney, Keen is hollow behind the saddle (OK, he was a loooong horse, so not easy to get him to lift...), as is the horse in second photo.

Really, YOU need to man up and show us how you'd like to see it done instead of using the photos and illustrations of others.

Carl Hester, one of your current heroes, I believe, advocates changing the horse's posture in training. Once again, you address ONLY what's going on in front of the saddle. The forehand cannot express freedom unless the hind end is sufficiently engaged and stepping under. WP horses "peanut rolling", shuffling along, are an extreme example of this.

Success in dressage training is built from the rear to the front.

Goatgirl · Advanced

It has always been my understanding that correct carriage is the result of a horse being on the 'aids' - 'on the bit is an expression that has much been misunderstood and is much bandied about and b@stardized - because many focus on the head and neck rather than looking at the horse and rider as a total picture. -- as figarocubed says 'rear to front' - I'd like to add soft and supple with a swing through the back ('it don't mean a thing if it don't go that swing' -- in the words of that old song of my parents generation) and responsive....the proper flexion at the poll and head carriage is a 'symptom' or result' of a hors stepping forward and under itself bringing -- and thus displaying it's beauty....it is easy to see when a horse is being pulled in and held on the curb..the tightness through the neck the ringing tail...etc...all results of improper riding....

really -- I think the focus should be on the horse and rider as a total picture...focusing on only the head and neck ...is a bit like listening to a cough and trying to diagnose the disease simply from the sound....

Figarocubed · Advanced

Exactly, Goatgirl! The WHOLE picture, not just the parts -- otherwise the analysis of dressage resembles that old story of the three blind men examining an elephant.

barnfrog · Advanced

I do not believe that that pix of HG is 84...I believe it was 76 (Montreal and I was there watching). Is the horse hollow behind? I don't think so, he is up and open (albeit not the not most collectible horse ...he was very long). And the other horse is closed and restricted, not accidently a moment but a horse not seeking the hand, but held low and closed by it. But one is in passage and one is in trot, not really comparible. And for what it is worth it is one of the better equitation pix of HG! Keen is passaging with the hindleg beyond the fall line of the flank (which is difficult), the second horse has not stepped beyond it (and should be in trot), and there is no apparent air time in that pix.

The entire idea of FDO is to see if the horse will chew the reins from the hand (still with a light connection) and open the throatlatch. That action is a TEST of correct conneciton. When a horse is ridden LDR it is intentional to not allow the horse to seek fdo, but to keep it (imho preciptiously) round. Roundness should be an action of proper use of the hindlegs when the horse is up and open and meeting the hand, not an action of the hand upon the neck's posture.

For what it is worth (at least in all symposium vid) CH suggests to ride the horse is a closed posture at all times, their stretching seems to be only lowering and not opening the throatlatch. THat means the belly is steadily contracted and raises the lumbar spine (as in the second pix), but the intention of traditional riding is to have the entire body, to lift the chest, the neck arcs out gracefully and the horse stays ifv (as a general rule).

-- Edited by barnfrog on Saturday 3rd of September 2011 03:17:23 PM

Figarocubed · Advanced

Thank you for pointing out that passage and trot are not really comparable.

Is it not true that the horse's belly muscles must be engaged as part of the circle of muscles in order for the topline to raise and the forehand to lift? Might not riding LDR be a means of strengthening those muscles, so long as the horse does not lose the ability to also go more open and elevated when asked?

barnfrog · Advanced

Yes and no. When a horse is ridden ldr (aka rk imho) the belly muscles are in steady forced contraction. When the horse is ridden properly on the bit and in traditional fdo, those muscles contract and relax and lift the chest as the hindleg joints compress and relax. It is interesting to watch the tails of horses in both methods and see the difference (esp in axial rotation as well). An interesting visual and I haveno idea if I can find a pix of Rembrandt before rk and after, is that the horses almost get a belly heave line as they grow older and the topline (esp in the triangle in front of the shoulder) remains undeveloped; and the necks are wider at the poll than at the wither/shoulder.

-- Edited by barnfrog on Sunday 4th of September 2011 12:50:58 AM

Figarocubed · Advanced

I should clarify that I wouldn't advocate LDR all the time -- but as one of MANY variations one can use to build strength and suppleness. Also, in my opinion, LDR is not RK if there is no force. Asked for softly (yes, it can be done...) and not "held" for long periods, I think LDR has benefits. Hauling a horse's chin to its chest? Um, no. Not that!

I doubt I will convince you, Barnfrog, and I know Spirithorse thinks it's blasphemy -- but I think there's no harm and much benefit to be gained by changing the horse's posture throughout a training session. Rather like Yoga or stretching incorporated into a human's exercise routine.

barnfrog · Advanced

So the question is always is: fdo is a test for correct training, mobility of the jaw, and has a suppling effect as well. How does one get ldr? It has to have an intentional effect of the hand as well to keeps it closed doesn't it? THus the self carriage of the neck is lost and the muscles in front of the shoulder which carry the neck are not built. And how long is this posture sustained? For what reason? Fdo is done for a circle (two at most) as part of relaxation or cool down. But ldr seems to be done ad infinitum, and such a posture puts the horse onto the forehand, the horse starts to move flatter with hindlegs pushing the load. And this is with the best riders doing it. I use a variety of exercises when I see clear value, but a closed throatlatch doing this suppresses the gaits, but is done for one clear reason: truckling sustained submission.

Certainly there are times that when going fdo a horse does not readily follow the hand and stays more closed, and certainly there may even be times that the rider intentionally makes a statement (omg) of the hand for a moment. But what effect comes from a sustained closed throatlatch action?

-- Edited by barnfrog on Sunday 4th of September 2011 11:44:34 AM

Figarocubed · Advanced

I used LDR and LDO alternatively and mixed in with a more elevated "correct" posture to encourage suppleness and relaxation. I don't hold with the ones who curl a horse into a snail shape and ride it that way for extended periods of time. That's ridiculous riding and I won't be pigeonholed as an RK advocate, TYVM.

Horses just starting out, horses that are weak, or horses recovering from injuries can benefit from JUDICIOUSLY done LDR. My gelding (avatar) is such a one. I was advised by my vet and advanced trainers and teachers to ride him LDR for a while, striving to have his poll LOWER than the withers. The development of the circle of muscles was crucial to his recovery. The throatlatch was not so closed as you are no doubt imagining. Contact was soft and spongy. No force necessary. I think this lifted position actually felt good for the horse to take, opening the spaces between the spinal processes and stretching the muscles & ligaments. We alternated between this and work on a loose rein. In fact, my "LDR", if I had to define it, was more like walking or trotting around on a stretchy rein. Soft contact, NO force.

We wanted maximum lifting & opening of the spine and its supporting tissues. This horse could not track up. His hind legs seemed to be stuck on only to hold his back end up. He seemed to pull himself around with the front legs as much as anything. le looked like a body builder who concentrated on his upper torso, but neglected his bottom half and legs. Imagine an Arnold Schwartzennegger upper body stuck on the bottom half of Don Knotts. That was Figgy! hmm

There was no strength to push, lift or elevate at first. The first two months of his recovery were done in walk and trot only. Lots of hill work at walk, too. All to rebuild his atrophied back. We all know that a strong core helps support the torso and core strengthening is part of the physical therapy to rehab injured backs. It was the same for this horse. He'd been injured either in jumping or during his transport from Europe -- no one knows exactly how he got hurt. Whatever it was, it ended his jumping career.

What I was doing with Figgy was NOT dressage training -- it was physical therapy. I understand that much (if not all!) of this sounds like heresy -- poll lower than withers and all that. Physical Therapy, not dressage! It took a year's worth of careful work, with periodic checkups with his vet, massage therapists, chiropractors and other professionals whose opinions I value. My avatar photo was taken about 15 months after I started his rehab work. Perfect? To me he is a gift from heaven. The sun rises and sets with him. I see the horse he was, and the horse he became, and I'm grateful to the people who helped me put him back together.

Believe it or don't believe it; it's all right with me. LDR may not be for all horses; it may be useful for some, for SHORT periods, or not at all. It may be detrimental to others, encouraging them to go BTB and behind the leg. I can see that. In fact, we had a little of that go on with Figgy, but it was quickly remedied by a few lessons with emphasis on forward.

barnfrog · Advanced

For me, who grew up at a time when fdo was done maybe two times in a ride, it is interesting to see all this concentration on lowering. I do not understand it. It is a test of a horse being on the bit, or not. It should be easy and willing, and the horse moves freer while being allowed to relaxed and momentarily lengthening. Beyond that, I see no benefit. A more closed low posture (in Germany) used to be the day before the show (to make a point of focusing) for may four times. Nothing more.
All this ldr came with the western pleasure tempo of Uphoff/Remmie. It was on the way out until Sjef came with Anky (and people copied a trainer with three years of riding experience!)
In any case, how is a weak horse to benifit from being asked to go in a closed posture, the intial way to ride a horse in a steady tempo, and get the hindleg is to be up/open and out to the hand so that the hindlegs can step through. Even in fdo (chewing the reins form the hand) the poll is ideally higher than the withers....only in that way are the vertebral bodies evenly aligned. When the horse is ldr the atlas/axis are still in flexion. A third of the body being lowered puts all the weight on the sling of muscles of the shoulders and the hindlegs only push it.
(And the question is always what we individually define as fdo/ldo/ldr. And for me the only difference between ldr and rk is that rk uses a LOT of lateral backward actions to sustain the low/closed frame.)
For me maximal lifting of the back is when the horse is out to the bridle and the hindleg joints are all evenly compressing and lowering the hindquarters while lifting the chest. What I see with a closed posture the horse can be made to 'track up', but it is with a long flat stride.
Good training (aka dressage) is BY DEFITION physical therapy because it is working the body en toto.
As I have said before I like your horse and the pix as a second stride of canter (the horse tends to close then). But for me the horse I would like it more so if he would be a smidge more up and open. Mho.

Figarocubed · Advanced

I can certainly post more photos of Figaro in a more ideal position if you like. (Unfortunately, some of MY positions are not so ideal!!) As for the benefits of LDR and what it did for Figgy, his recovery must speak for itself. I can assure you, Barnfrog, that NO lateral backward actions were used to encourage Figgy to go down and forward with his head. He was low with his noggin, but we were also asking him to step up more with the hinds as he was able to do so. As his rear end got stronger, he was able to lift the front and achieve a position closer to the ideal. If I had asked him to travel with his poll the highest point during the rehabilitation, he would NEVER have recovered. The process to rebuild his hind end took months. If I had to violate a few ODG's dressage rules, I was willing to do it to fix my horse.

Because of the injury, opening the spinal processes to the max were important to my vet. Many transitions up and down and back again were part of the "physical therapy".

Yes, yes, I understand that dressage is "PT" by definition, but sometimes when faced with an unusual problem, one must come up with an unusual solution. I chose to trust my veterinarian and the trainer/coaches who saw the horse after I bought him. It paid off, don't you think?

I appreciate what you're saying about the photo and the positioning in general. If it were a perfect world, not only would Figgy be more up and open, but my left leg wouldn't be doing that weird thing, and my shoulders would be more relaxed. Oh, and I'd be younger and prettier, too!

Photo on the left is from the same May show as the avatar photo. Photo on the right is from Championships in September, same year. (Photos not to be reproduced without my written consent. evileye )

-- Edited by Figarocubed on Monday 5th of September 2011 12:18:36 AM

-- Edited by Figarocubed on Monday 5th of September 2011 12:28:59 AM

Jackie Cochran · Advanced

Thank you Figarocubed for the description of how you brought your horse back.

This is basically the method I use to bring back horses with weak backs, but I do it from the Forward Seat viewpoint. When I start or restart horses riding it is the horse who dictates his head carriage, I know when the horse gets strong enough he WILL bring his head up on his own, unless, of course, the horse is trained only to move with his head down. In that case it takes longer, much longer. During the process I make sure not to sit back in the saddle until the horse's back invites me to.

The main difference is in FS system I do not do much contact work until the horse has raised his head on his own, mainly because I do not want to get the horse into the habit of curling back. Since I have neurological handicaps I figure that I am not good enough to try contact until the horse voluntarily gets his head higher. I work a lot at three speeds of a gait, soft halts, mostly just puttering around until the horse tells me (by how he moves) that he is ready for developing correct movement. Very slow work since I can't ride a horse more that 30 minutes at a time and at most twice a week. But, amazingly, even with such little time spent working the horse I have brought back horses so they could start moving correctly, using their backs and hind ends effectively.

If I had started from a dressage perspective I would not have been able to help these horses, I would not know how. Fortunately for me the Forward Seat system gave me the guidelines within which the horse can build up his strength as comfortably as is possible.

Figarocubed, your vet's solution is not radical, unusual or new. Good for you listening to your vet! Figgy will thank you for the rest of his life. It is a major accomplishment to bring a horse from bad back injuries to collected work. Feel proud, you have earned it!

Barbara F · Grand Prix

Figarocubed, your photos of you and your horse at the show are lovely! He looks like a HAPPY boy!
It takes guts to post them in a discussion like this!! :)

My coach looks at the individual needs of the horses in deciding on their warm-up frame, and generally how to work them. Some horses are warmed up very low and stretchy, some are warmed up a bit rounder, others are warmed up more open and up in front (for lack of a better way of explaining it).

Just like people, horses have their own strengths and weaknesses. My husband and I train in karate together and I certainly don't warm myself up the same way as my husband, as we are each working on different goals and take into account our individual areas of stiffness and where we have to be stronger and more supple. Why not the same for horses?

Also, I have no problem with anyone criticizing the riding of the international riders and not being able to ride like that themselves. Afterall, it is done by baseball, basketball and hockey fans every day.

You don't have to be able to do something well to know when someone else is doing it well.

BUT I do have a problem with judging other amateur riders who are out there doing their best and who might not be riding with a perfect seat or have their horse in a perfect frame at all times.

If we were all to be judged like that we would ALL fall short. If an amateur rider is going to criticize another for not riding perfectly(different than helpful, encouraging suggestions) then the criticizer MUST put their own videos and photos forward as an example of the perfection that they expect from other riders.

Not to say anyone here is doing this or that, but just piping in with my own two cents!

-- Edited by Barbara F on Monday 5th of September 2011 11:32:52 AM

barnfrog · Advanced

Figarocubed wrote:
........ to encourage Figgy to go down and forward with his head. .......

Then the horse was doing fdo, not ldr.

Figarocubed · Advanced

Barnfrog, you'd have to see photos of him at work from those days. I'd have to capture them from old video and I'm not the most adept at that. But I will try. His nose definitely pointed backwards in the early days.

I do have a photo taken the day I went to see Figgy for the first time, with the facility trainer in the tack. I will attach it. It's not the best, as there's a jump standard smack in the middle of the photo, but it gives an idea where the horse came from to where he is in the above photos.

Thank you, Jackie, for your comments. You reminded me that for much of Figgy's early rehab, the work was done in a half-seat -- somewhere between forward seat and dressage -- but attempting to sit lightly on his back till it got stronger.

Your ability to work through your difficulties is an inspiration.

Thanks, too, Barbara, for your compliment! Yes, Figgy's a big happy puppy! I'm blessed to have this wonderful horse in my life. It was Kismet.

Here's Figgy the day I first saw him:

Yes, THIS looks like RK to me.

-- Edited by Figarocubed on Monday 5th of September 2011 10:02:55 PM