Cesar Parra Facing Charges for Abuse

Barbara F · Grand Prix

Cesar Parra Facing Charges for Abuse

barnfrog · Advanced

Complaint was filed by Ashley Meyer????

Did EAB see how the horse was previously worked (which was similar) before CP?

-- Edited by barnfrog on Monday 19th of March 2012 01:38:01 AM

barnfrog · Advanced

This was well documented (for pages with much video now removed from you tube...3 years after it happened) on another board, complete with that of the owners own work. (Which included the same lungeing set up laterally which CP is said to have used.) So what was difference in the methods between owner and CP? I have no 'side' in this discussion, but neithers' work floats my boat and both likely contributed to the responses. And going in the OP would have to know how CP trains by merely watching at shows/at home, pretty obvious to all. And signing a training agreement would indemnify all parties, esp if the same methods were used.

-- Edited by barnfrog on Monday 19th of March 2012 10:23:46 AM

Barbara F · Grand Prix

BF, I believe she is the investigating officer for the Hunterdon SPCA.

Hopefully, Allan will come on here and answer the second question.

Barbara F · Grand Prix

I have found the owner's story of what happened here on her website under William PFF.
http://www.passingfancyhorses.com/

I couldn't find anything from Cesar Parra, although the owner says there is a letter he sent out with a different version of events.

Barbara F · Grand Prix

Having only the information available, and not having been there, it sounds like the owner set the horse up as she normally would for lunging, then CP changed the side reins and the lunging set-up.

What it sounds like (again, from the info. I've been able to find) is that the side reins were arranged in such a way that the horse couldn't get up after he fell, and then he started to panic.

I've seen horses in sidereins dart, slip and fall on the lungeline, pick themselves up and carry on. I would think there would be times if a horse fell that a person would have to undo the sidereins for it to get up, but I don't know.

Whatever happens with the charges, that poor horse now has a permanent tilt to his head and his injuries and photos sure are heartbreaking.

In the meantime, the charges for "overdrive...overwork...abuse...torment...torture" are being moved ahead.

I do hope further information emerges to clarify what happened in some sort of objective way if at all possible.

-- Edited by Barbara F on Monday 19th of March 2012 11:25:27 PM

barnfrog · Advanced

Barbara F wrote:

Having only the information available, and not having been there, it sounds like the owner set the horse up as she normally would for lunging, then CP changed the side reins and the lunging set-up.
....
I've seen horses in sidereins dart, slip and fall on the lungeline, pick themselves up and carry on. I would think there would be times if a horse fell that a person would have to undo the sidereins for it to get up, but I don't know.
...
In the meantime, there must be at least to investigate, because the criminal charges for "overdrive...overwork...abuse...torment...torture" are being moved ahead.

Except for being shortened the line was run as the owner had done (from mouth to stirrup to handler, and he was ridden in sidereins between his front legs). This was all on vid. Did the horse over reaction? For sure, but hindsight is 20-20. When he was previously too low/closed/overly 'rounded'/etc, its just more of the same.

Remember this is almost three years after. And with a signed training contract where does it go from here? He did what the owner had done previously, so what is the difference between the two? And everyone who watches CP knows he goes to the edge in riding (some like that/want their horses to copy it and some want more calm...owner chose it), but this really didnt sound/look like he had done much different than the own had done, and the rest of the vid of 'what happened' are after the fact.

Sad for everyone, but imho the most important thing to be learned imho is how important the first handling is to calm reactions, rather than blame in the middle of training. And we have all had over reactions at times, it happens, sometimes seemingly out of no where. For me this is between the owner and trainer.

-- Edited by barnfrog on Monday 19th of March 2012 12:26:50 PM

Barbara F · Grand Prix

Lots of stuff I am nodding my head to right now. I've bolded below.

barnfrog wrote:

Except for being shortened the line was run as the owner had done (from mouth to stirrup to handler, and he was ridden in sidereins between his front legs). This was all on vid. Did the horse over reaction? For sure, but hindsight is 20-20. How true, as we have all learned through the years.
When he was previously too low/closed/overly 'rounded'/etc, its just more of the same.

Remember this is almost three years after. And with a signed training contract where does it go from here? He did what the owner had done previously, so what is the difference between the two? And everyone who watches CP knows he goes to the edge in riding (some like that/want their horses to copy it and some want more calm...owner chose it), but this really didnt sound/look like he had done much different than the own had done, and the rest of the vid of 'what happened' are after the fact. There must have been witnesses and I would guess that they would come forward at some point, although I wonder how much I could remember about an incident after years had gone by.

Sad for everyone, but imho the most important thing to be learned imho is how important the first handling is to calm reactions, rather than blame in the middle of training. And we have all had over reactions at times, it happens, sometimes seemingly out of no where. For me this is between the owner and trainer.

-- Edited by Barbara F on Monday 19th of March 2012 05:51:55 PM

barnfrog · Advanced

The difference was in the side rein length/type, not the rest of lateral flexion which set of the over reaction...that was the same attachment. Imho it was all problematic use of s.r. (from lungeing at the beginning and including riding in them at the beginning). The pot cannot call the kettle black, its the same, just a greater degree. I do want to be on the side of the horse, of methodical training, and it's all a mess from what I have seen. But why choose this trainer in the first place? Extreme scope with youngsters is what people value, and pretend they don't know all that goes with it excess. The owner is not a newbie, and as a fei rider/owner should know what kind of person they are delivering their horse to by watching their work, and still watch it closely before decagon, and stop it if necessary. I know I have, as have many students.

And for what it is worth, (at USEF shows) draw reins are NOT allowed (for lunge or riding).

Be assured that the handler is not a fav of mine, but equally the situation did not occur in a vacumn. Responsibility is sadly shared from what I have seen, but the horse paid the price.

-- Edited by barnfrog on Monday 19th of March 2012 10:16:37 PM

Marlene · Advanced

Morally folks can try debating, apportioning blame, or not, in which case we just call it a tragic accident. Should an owner check out a trainer, of course. Should an owner defer to a trainer, or keep a hawk-eye on them every minute, not knowing when some piece of equipment is going to be switched out or used somehow that the owner thinks is not appropriate. Did this owner defer to the trainer because he claimed he had superior knowledge and expertise? If the trainer changed up the set up without the owner's knowledge or permission, and if he claims to know what he's doing, I don't see how he can avoid some responsability here. At the very least he should have known a horse can become cast and start thrashing with his setup, and should have a jackknife in his pocket to cut everything loose if the horse is down. He can't just say a big "OOPS", damn horse should have known better. Legally it is going to come down to what kind of contract these two had signed. If there's a clause in there that says in effect, Bad Things Can Happen, and I won't take any responsibility for what a horse might do,or, I am the Trainer I can do Whatever I like, then this owner is going to have a difficult time in court. I'm sort of the suspicious type, I am afraid to hand my animals over to someone else, who is probably far more competent than I am for just this reason. If I, in my stupidity do something wrong with my horse, I have myself to blame. But I really don't want' to have to be angry for what someone else did, because I don't handle that well. I have a hard time trusting anyone with my animals (I think my vet can attest to that). But sometimes I have to let them do what they are hired to do, (I probably drive them crazy with my questions, but hey), and thank God I have excellent vets. If a trainer tells me what they think should be done, then I will take it under advisement, and only do what I think fits with my philosophy. I don't let anyone else, ever train my animals.

There's a saying amongst skydivers "You pack your own chute."

-- Edited by Marlene on Tuesday 20th of March 2012 12:26:02 AM

Jackie Cochran · Advanced

I got a different impression about the way the reins were changed, the TRAINER, when the owner was not there, changed the lunge line to going through the stirrup, and changed the side reins also.

I have known for probably over 30 years that if a horse is down on its side and its nose is pulled up and to the side it is impossible for the horse to get up. This is an old trick of the trade when horse traders/breakers are working down and dirty with a horse. Of course it was rarely used with well trained compliant horses, it was reserved for horses who were a danger to themselves and/or the people around them.

According to the owners report the horse repeatedly had its nose pulled up and to the side when he was trying to get up. I do not know if the trainer did not know about this inability to get up when the nose is pulled to the side, but it sounds like the trainer and/or the tack REPEATEDLY prevented the horse from getting up. Of course the horse freaked out.

Jackie Cochran · Advanced

Oh, I forgot, the trainer also used a WHIP to try and get the horse up while it was convulsing.

It sure sounds abusive to me.

barnfrog · Advanced

The question is: was this filed done with the OWNERS approval? If so, why not 3 years ago. And where is the vet report?

According to previous discussions (coth), the owner was there but not in the consistently in the arena. Nothing had changed except for shorter side reins (but the vids of the owner before show a horse btv in hand/on a lunge), it showed the owner previously with the lunge line through the stirrup while in side reins. And sometimes if a horse goes down, it needs to get up to not get more hurt, so sometimes it is do what it takes unfortunately. Where was the owner's due diligence about choosing this trainer in the first place (would not be my choice), or staying in the arena while it was worked? (This is an upper level rider and trainer herself.) Horrid happening to be sure.

spirithorse · Advanced

Well here I am.
Yes the owner was fully aware of my taking the legal action on her behalf.
Please read the affidavit I filed on Ms. Miranda's behalf in the current civil case and for the new criminal/civil charges.
The gross negligent actions by Mr. Parra are clearly stipulated.
As for the owner/trainer schooling the horse in the same manner as Mr. Parra, that is false. She does not overbend and secure the horse so that it cannot move. The following images clearly demonstrate the extreme constraints imposed upon the horse by Mr. Parra. This is a misuse of side reins and is a physical abuse of the horse. This extreme constraint prevented the horse from preventing injury to himself

spirithorse · Advanced

The owner believed Mr. Parra was a talented trainer and could help her further the horse's schooling for an event she wanted to have him in.
It is a most difficult situation when one seeks out information about trainers, because the negative is rarely disclosed, except in forums and how much of that is truth versus BS?
I have seen trainers properly use side reins and draw reins, wherein, the horses are not constrained in a manner detrimental to their welfare.
This is not the pot calling the kettle black, simply because as a trainer Mr. Parra chose to ignore his fiduciary responsiblities on behalf of the horse by refusing to allow Ms. Miranda to demonstrate how well the horse did lunge when in correctly adjusted equipment and by Mr. Parra's intentional tightening of the equipement and adding unnecessary equipment.
It is my hope that this case will teach others to speak up and not be silent, that they do have legal recourse and to take such action if they have sufficient evidence and not just hearsay. Then these kinds of backroom training methods will be exposed and such trainers no longer will be in business.

barnfrog · Advanced

spirithorse wrote:
The owner believed Mr. Parra was a talented trainer and could help her further the horse's schooling for an event she wanted to have him in.
It is a most difficult situation when one seeks out information about trainers, because the negative is rarely disclosed, except in forums and how much of that is truth versus BS?
I have seen trainers properly use side reins and draw reins, wherein, the horses are not constrained in a manner detrimental to their welfare.
This is not the pot calling the kettle black, simply because as a trainer Mr. Parra chose to ignore his fiduciary responsiblities on behalf of the horse by refusing to allow Ms. Miranda to demonstrate how well the horse did lunge when in correctly adjusted equipment and by Mr. Parra's intentional tightening of the equipement and adding unnecessary equipment.
It is my hope that this case will teach others to speak up and not be silent, that they do have legal recourse and to take such action if they have sufficient evidence and not just hearsay. Then these kinds of backroom training methods will be exposed and such trainers no longer will be in business.

One more comment, and then I am done.

I HAVE lost a horse when he was away from home to be sold to Germany, and it was also a huge economic hit as well. And an emotional one in that I felt I should have been there. That said, #$*(&$# happens.

That said, this was no newbie. It is clear from the trainer's work how his horses are brought alone, no one could deny that, the expression and movement show it and everyone knows it as well. Sit and watch for some rides before delivering the horse for training (hoping for ribbons as well). And equally it was clear from previously linked vids that the owner also believes in a closed often btv posture (just not such an extreme one as is shown), and even used sidereins as a martingale. Clearly the pix were copying such winners as Power & Paint, for the outcome which is now valued, and everyone either uses it themselves or looks away and only calls things a little btv.

On one hand you are saying the owner wanted to tell the trainer how to train the horse, on the other hand gave up control. There is no way I would be out in the aisle talking when my horse was being trained, esp early on. What unnecessary equipment? Leather side reins are used by the SRS (that said they are first applied to a caveson, and progressively added to the bit). But this is a problem with earlier causes imho. He assumed a certain competence of the training before it came to him I believe, which is problematic.

A trainer should never ASSUME anything, and they and the horse will be safer.

For you, it is all heresay, unless of course you were there. And for me the opionions are on all the vids I have seen.

I agree with your sentiments on abuse. But it is also caveat emptor.

K Riley · Foal

I have never posted on a forum before, but can resist no longer. I, unlike Mr. Buck, witnessed that entire day, starting with William's arrival until after his accident and well into the late night. I witnessed and participated in the response that helped to save William's life. This was a terrible, and sad accident. PERIOD. Mr. Buck is passing judgement and passing on information from something that he did not witness, as well as passing on all the predudicial images he can, to as many outlets as he can to inflame the situation as much as possible; seemingly in his desire to defame Cesar as much as possible.

The release of the pictures/video, the timing of these charges so long after the actual events took place, all speak volumes to the multiple agendas at play here.

Are the pictures and videos disturbing? Of course they are! Do they tell the whole story of that day? They most certainly do not, not even close..

I have been working in Cesar Parra's barn for nearly 12 years. Over those years I have witnessed horses being treated with an absolute top level of care and consideration, and being competely catered to - As they should be! Horses are in my opinion possibly the kindest animals God has put upon this earth. The horses at the barn are happy and their health is paramount. The horses that Cesar rides follow him around when he walks around the arena on foot. We have happy clients and horses that range from beginner to Grand Prix. We have visitors nearly on a daily basis who watch the training and consistently remark on what a positive, friendly place the barn is. Cesar is responsible for all of these positive things.

spirithorse · Advanced

Ms. Kathleen Riley
Thank you for your posting.
This is evidence that as an employee of Cesar Parra, you willfully condoned the over constraining of a horse to the extent that the horse was incapable of trying to prevent bodily injury to itself.
As an employee, and I presume a knowledgable horsewoman, it is your fiduciary duty to protect the health and welfare of the horse and in this particular case you willfully chose not to interfere with your Boss Cesar Parra.
And by the way, read my affidavit provided to the civil court and to the criminal investigation. You might just realize the actual position you have placed yourself in.
Once again thank you for the post.

Marlene · Advanced

K Riley wrote:
I have never posted on a forum before, but can resist no longer. I, unlike Mr. Buck, witnessed that entire day, starting with William's arrival until after his accident and well into the late night. I witnessed and participated in the response that helped to save William's life. This was a terrible, and sad accident. PERIOD. Mr. Buck is passing judgement and passing on information from something that he did not witness, as well as passing on all the predudicial images he can, to as many outlets as he can to inflame the situation as much as possible; seemingly in his desire to defame Cesar as much as possible.
The release of the pictures/video, the timing of these charges so long after the actual events took place, all speak volumes to the multiple agendas at play here.
Are the pictures and videos disturbing? Of course they are! Do they tell the whole story of that day? They most certainly do not, not even close..
I have been working in Cesar Parra's barn for nearly 12 years. Over those years I have witnessed horses being treated with an absolute top level of care and consideration, and being competely catered to - As they should be! Horses are in my opinion possibly the kindest animals God has put upon this earth.  The horses at the barn are happy and their health is paramount. The horses that Cesar rides follow him around when he walks around the arena on foot. We have happy clients and horses that range from beginner to Grand Prix. We have visitors nearly on a daily basis who watch the training and consistently remark on what a positive, friendly place the barn is. Cesar is responsible for all of these positive things.

If he is responsible for all the positive things, then he may have to also take responsibility for the negative as well. This horse was under his direct care and treatment. He did what any horse could potentially do in the same circumstance. He was fine when he went in, and his rather bad outcome wasn't due to some random event like a heart attack or cosmic rays. When the horse went down, I'd really like to know why the lines weren't immediately released, if they were so confining that the horse couldn't get up. If it wasn't possible to release the lines, then why would anyone want to put a horse potentially in that position?

spirithorse · Advanced

Ms. Kathleen Riley states: "seemingly in his desire to defame Cesar as much as possible"

Ms Riley, I have in my possession an email sent by Mr. Parra in which he actually legally defames Ms. Miranda.

I do not defame Mr. Parra, Mr. Parra acted with gross negligence and if you support his actions then you support horse abuse and must face the consequences of your actions and/or lack of actions to prevent horse abuse.

barnfrog · Advanced

Honest question: what makes the difference in the work: the material of the side reins and/or the shortening? The degree of over flexion is little changed. Do you even know the comparative?

-- Edited by barnfrog on Tuesday 20th of March 2012 07:18:54 PM

Figarocubed · Advanced

Spirithorse, once you're done harassing Dr. Parra, will you run for President again?

spirithorse · Advanced

I am not harassing him, I am calling him a horse abuser. You don't like it to damn bad.
And if I had the money Romney and Obama have, you damn straight I would run for president.
At least I can state unequivically that I am not a coward and am willing to put it all on the line.
You on the other hand present yourself as a whiny clucking chicken.
Have a great day.

Figarocubed · Advanced

Sticks and stones, buddy, sticks and stones...

You attempt to promote yourself by pulling others down, through intimidation and cyber-bullying.

I call you what you are.

Buck, buck, buck, buck, bwaaaaak! So sayeth the whiney clucking chicken.

spirithorse · Advanced

Well seems I placed a burr under your behind....LOL

Please
Come out from behind the keyboard and tell us your real name and where you live and where you train.

Figarocubed · Advanced

Checking....checking. Nope. No burrs here. Check your white board. PMs are evidently not going through.

dbliron · Advanced

I haven't watched the video, nor do I want to. A couple of short notes:

1. I don't like the way Dr. Parra trains, but I have the advantage of coming from a classical education, and I understand that there are better ways. Many owners do not have that advantage.

2.Owners usually choose trainers who promise that their horses will win. While this is not always the case, it certainly occurs with exhausting regularity in our sport.

3.Owners are often ignorant of good training practices, whether or not they compete in the FEI levels.

4.Trainers can and do exert undue influence over owners' decisions.

5.While I believe that owners are responsible for their horses' welfare, they are often controlled by the opinions of their trainers, and are very often told that they do not and/or cannot comprehend the approaches of their trainers.

6.As a trainer, I AM responsible for the training decisions which affect the horses in my care and under my direction. If an owner comes to me with a horse which has been heretofore abused, it is still MY responsibility to choose and implement humane training approaches.

7.Whether or not the owner made the rein adjustments or Dr. Parra made them, Dr. Parra chose to work the horse within those adjustments, and therein lies his responsibility. His duty to the horse was to assess and amend the adjustments - he was the professional in charge.

HOWEVER:

I am glad that Allan's had the courage of his convictions, and is choosing to address what he sees as abusive behaviour, BUT Allan's attacks are feeling like a witch hunt to me.

Allan, you really do need to learn that a less vitriolic and personal tone will strengthen your message. As it is, your personal attacks lessen the impact of your very real concerns. For instance, Figarocubed is a positive and contributing member of these forums, and her contributions are helpful to many other members. The same can be said of barnfrog. I would greatly appreciate it if you could refrain from making personal attacks on those members who question your statements and opinions: forums are all about working through issues, and that requires honest and open discussion.

Figarocubed · Advanced

dbliron, I'd PM you if I could, but PM function is still not working.

Thanks for the input!

I witnessed Parra ride in a Young Horse clinic several years ago. That impression was positive, but he was under the supervision of the clinician. He seemed to ride sensitively and well. Since then I have heard disturbing things about Dr. Parra and his methods. He's not the only BNT who uses questionable techniques and I think sometimes abuse is in the eye of the beholder. In my own dealing with trainers, I avoid the ones I believe to be abusive or even "tough". Dealing with horses, one must always be fair to them, IMHO.

I will not condemn someone on the basis of hearsay or ONE videotape.

Reverend Buck makes a practice of intimidation, litigation (usually frivolous, IMO) and for that opinion, he has repeatedly "demanded" that I "out" myself. There is a very good reason I do not do so, which I outlined to him on his whiteboard, since PM is not working.

As it was meant for his eyes only, I went back and erased it after several hours.

barnfrog · Advanced

1 There are many traditionally trained riders which either take it too far as far as expression, or who have signed up to produce what the judges want, which for me is a departure from training by traditional guidelines. BUT these are CLEAR to any viewer.

2.Most 'giftd by nature' horses will have success (if they stay sound) with an above average trainer. However some might not go as far as others because they might 'sign up' for non traditional methods. (The concept of 'balance' used to apply for ALL disaplines, and now it does not, it is about submission and outline).

3 You are right that "owners are often ignorant of good training practices' even when they have already competed at fei (the owner here).

4 "Trainers can and do exert undue influence over owners' decisions". But this cannot happen in a vacumn!!!! What is undue? A trainer must also be a teacher, there must be REASONING behind there actions. And the one who pays the bills must be informed of them. What was the reasoning of the owner long lining with side reins on? Or riding with them as a martingale? And why were they loose with overflexion? So, how did the new trainer change these things? Degree? Where did one method morph to another? Where did the origin of a terrible accident start?

5 ALL training methods should not be explained and BASED (in our tradition) on the guidelines of our tradition. Not some bastardization of flexion first (which seems to across the board to all disiplines at this point) which is meant to 'control'. It is here that the 'noble horses' protest being put out of balance. But for me the roots of this came way earlier than the horses overreaction.

6 For sure a teacher/trainer ideally first does no damage as they teach/trainer. But we also know we are dealing with a living being (with history/etc). That said, often times what we are given has so much missing background compared to what we are told. But people who look to the horse's body for the truth, and attempt to see causal reactions to what the horse offers, are few and far between.

7. I agree, but accidents happen. Who has not had a horse over-react? Lungeing or in cross ties or slipping undersaddle.

BNT are often bnts because they are given MANY lovely horses, and that already puts them above the curve. It is not necessary their skill per se, but a game of numbers. It is also one of attrition. And there are many lovely horses which refuse such handling (I have gotten several lovely horses inexpensively who finally said no to problematic methodologies ....ie fei horses who refused to canter or actually hurt people...yet they were pussy cats and easy to ride with a traditional approach).

Also for anyone sending the horse away from their care/custody/control: have (loss of use) insurance!

spirithorse · Advanced

Dbilron:

Once again a thread I start that is about and for the horses becomes a personal attack forum.

" I would greatly appreciate it if you could refrain from making personal attacks on those members who question your statements and opinions: forums are all about working through issues, and that requires honest and open discussion"

I am not the one who chooses to always be in attack mode. Figarocubed cannot refrain from attacking me. If you believe in what you quote than address it to her.

You damn straight I am a litigant, however, in the state I live corruption controls the courts and as such I have never been allowed to present any evidence in a court of law to prove my cases.

You damn straight I am a litigant....I am not a coward and will fight for what is legally and morally right.

dbliron · Advanced

Hey, Allan, go back and read again what I wrote. I actually gave you a compliment in there...

Barnfrog:

I agree, trainers and coaches should be teaching, but that's a perfect world. I think it's how you approach the job, and it's certainly how I approach the job, and I think our most important responsibility is to keep on doing what we do in the way that we do it, so that eventually people realize that there are options available which do not include force and abuse.

I'm heading back into the competition ring this spring, to try to ensure that riders and owners see horses competing in harmony with their riders, and with joy in the experience. I mostly find that judges reward those performances, with some exceptions, but most are relieved to have something other than just the "big lick" in front of them.

I think that litigation has its place, but if we do not offer people an alternative to bad training and bad coaching there's no point in castigating them for utilizing what's most obvious to them.

There is, at least in BC, a gross prevalence of very controlling dressage coaches and trainers, who work hard at undermining the confidence and growth of their clients, just as abusive spouses do. We have had several situations (representative of at least three FEI level coaches/trainers) involving physical threats to horses and to their owners and riders when choices were made to remove horses from training, so I think it's important not to underestimate the power a trainer and/or coach can bring to bear.

Barbara F · Grand Prix

Cesar Parra has issued quite a strong statement.

Read it HERE.

Thoughts?

-- Edited by Barbara F on Saturday 24th of March 2012 10:23:08 AM

spirithorse · Advanced

Once again Mr. Parra uses deceptive and misleading statements.
And that is good because it shows his propencity to do so.
USEF 'DID NOT' hold a hearing and as such violated NY administrative law and my civil rights.

Jackie Cochran · Advanced

From the statement I got the feeling that since he is a team member and professional trainer NO ONE should ever even think of questioning his methods.
If, while training someone else's horse, and an equivalent thing happened, I would automatically be blamed, either of being ignorant, unskilled in horsemanship and training, or of being abusive, and I would probably be sued for ruining the value of the horse. Why is it different for BNTs?
I have noticed that usually when a BNT's methods are questioned on humane grounds all of a sudden there is a flock of people who know the BNT who immediately proclaim that the trainer and his methods are humane and skilled. You also get this from apologists for the soring of the THW's, abusive racing training, show training, and others. It makes me wonder why the Catholic church does not proclaim that these trainers are saints while they are still alive.
We who protest the abuse are not evil. We know that people get so used to horrible practices that they seem normal, and therefore non-abusive. Back in Anna Sewall's time (Black Beauty) there were apologists insisting that overly tight bearing reins weren't abusive or crippling. If no experienced horsepeople speak up the abuse just ends up being accepted as normal, and it continues until SOMEONE finally speaks out effectively. Unfortunately in our society this often means that it needs to end up in the court system since the national/international associations do not think that abuse happens in their sport. After all, since no experienced horse person spoke out, therefore the abuse must be humane and acceptable.
Thank you Allan for daring to speak out effectively for the horse.

Figarocubed · Advanced

I think Reverend Buck has a burr under HIS saddle from not being taken seriously by USEF. Unfortunately, Buck is NOT an effective advocate for horses. He is percieved as a laughingstock. I'm not the only person who believes he's doing all this as self-promotion.

Standing up for fair treatment of horses is a laudable thing -- too bad it's not being done by someone with better standing than Buck.

Reverend Buck, how is it that you have such bad luck in the courts? According to you, they are ALL corrupt. The day you actually WIN a case, I'm sure you'll praise the system to the skies and proclaim that the courts are fair.

It will be interesting to see how this case plays out. Good luck!

barnfrog · Advanced

Anyone with half a brain knows who the degree of flexion de jour is gotten (esp if there are already fei riders) The owner used one way that she thinks got the results, and sent the horse to someone else whose results she obviously agreed with, otherwise why sent the horse there. That said, this situation, although sad, is not only one person's responsiblity. By indulging in fights which have muddy facts, the entire cause (to change peoples ideas on training) is muddied as well.

If nothing else, we need to go back to the Power & Paint debacle and see how that played out. Address it, yes. But imho a different way. For me, there are many situations which are abuse from prolonged actions rather than a momentary over reaction. And honestly who has not seen them (in cross ties, in lunging and slipping, etc etc).

Should one look to the methodical training of the horses rather than the FLASH and (precipitous) FLEXION? FOR SURE. But comes from EDUCATING THE CONSUMER, not from litigeousness.

Figarocubed · Advanced

Well stated, Barnfrog!

Barbara F · Grand Prix

Any updates? I've heard nothing.

spirithorse · Advanced

It is with the Grand Jury Group still, for probable felony charges. Seems there may be others who are coming forward with complaints.

barnfrog · Advanced

In what way? Felony is punishable by death, or more than a year in jail. Nothing listed is a felony with this case, but misdomeaners (at best). Those listed with the other case can be fraud IF proveded, but has to be adjudicated in europe, very expensive. Worth it for 500k, and those who are out that.

From being in a case with things with like variables as the OP here, suffering loss, it is good money down a hole. Settle, move on.

-- Edited by barnfrog on Sunday 22nd of April 2012 02:12:26 PM

barnfrog · Advanced

Felony for what? The dealings with horse sales? How does the lunging of this horse become a felony? A misdomeaner perhaps, although what did he do differently then the owner (except for length certainly the intention was the same...excessive flexion)?

spirithorse · Advanced

Deceptive trade practices, fraud, misrepresentation, contract fraud....................??????

barnfrog · Advanced

So, that has to do with the suit for selling the european horse which has been in the works for a year, not this case.

spirithorse · Advanced

Ah, but it does have something to do with this case.

barnfrog · Advanced

Now THIS is horse ABUSE...intentional/calculate and plain MEAN : http://www.facebook.com/WFSB3

which ends up as

http://www.wfsb.com/story/17654858/police-investigate-possible-horse-dragging-incident-after-neighbors-complain

deb · Well Schooled

I have not read all the information, on the grounds that I have heard this story all too many times before, and it seems pretty simple.

Onwer takes a horse to someone cause they have a big name/rep. the person with big name/rep has money presteage, and a lot of cruel tricks of the trade to get the 'job done', the person has okay ways of training, mixed with cruelty, and the barns and the horses look okay, but underneath there is something rotten in denmark as the saying goes.

To me it is simple, if a horse is sent to someone and the horse gets hurt the person that was responsible was the one working with the horse. If the horse got hurt and the person could do nothing, (this is seldom), and the reason the horse got in the situation in the first place was due to unforseable circumstances, than the person is still somewhat to blame, the horse would not be there at that moment, in that situation left to it's own divices, but the blame is limited... this seems not the case here.

The person in charge of the horse caused the horse to be in a postion that it fell in the first place, the person is to blame, the horse then was caught up in such a manner that it needed to be freed, it was not, then the horse was forced to get up when it could not... on all three counts the person was to blame. The person also erred on another point in that he put the horse in a cruel postion in the first place.

I have nothing agains draw/side reins. I have used both, but my horses have never been tied even 'at the virtical' never mind behind it, nor down lower than their natural head carriage. The reins always had elastic sewn in, and I never put a horse in such a postion that it fell.. I have trained horses since I was 9 years old, I am 40 almost two!!! I have trained all types and breeds, even stbs to become dressage and jumpers... and never have I caused a horse to be under stress on any type of briddle/side reign/draw reigns. I see many errors on this trainers list of wrongs.. and just becuase he has a big name does not mean that I am against or FOR him. I simply see abuse, the horse fell, could not get up and then was forced to get up at peril to himself. Therefore this is abuse. The horse was being forced to have his head behind the virtical, and far to low. All cruel.

I care not one bit if the laws say whatever they want, this is the truth, so arguments about he said she said mean nothing to me. Horse fell, horse could not get back up was forced, and got hurt. Who had control of the horse at this time?????? good enough than that person is to blame.

Saying all of that. The owner put this horse in this persons care, this person had a bad rep from the bit of reading I have done before. This person was not apparently watched closely enough, or the owner agreed with at least some of this persons's methods, so I question how much the person cared about this horse beyond the quality and cost and productivity of such a horse.

I have owned horse for many years and like another poster here, my horses do not leave my care. I am lucky enough to have a husband who is our farrier. Also my horses see vets only for coggins and for little else (we do stbs, so in that you would starve if you had vets in too much unless you have rich owners to pay the bills) also saying that my horses are known for the best cared horses that anyone has ever seen. They see freedoms and kindness, and care that million dollar stock does not see, whether they have made me a dime or not, whether they ever will, or wheather I keep them for a day, a month or for the rest of thier lives. So from my prespective as a rule no one else touches my horses while I own them. I am the first and last protection for them, the first and last voice between them and the rest of the world. When it comes to my animals no one goes near them unless I must allow it-- this occurs rarely

A couple of years ago I ended up bying (at great cost to myself) a horse that was abused and dying. Shortly before this I had been helping the current owner to care for the horse at no cost to him but great emotional cost to myself. I felt for the horse, and my husband felt for the horse, and mistakenly the owner. The horse was given an injection (remember the horse was not mine at this time-- and this was against our wishes) in the muscle, the injection gave the horse a reaction. The reaction could have been simply treated with dmso rubbed on the neck for a short while... the owner had entered the horse to race, he worried that the lump would be seen, and trouble from the judges would ensue... he called the vet in for a 'vet scratch' a normal practice in stb racing. The vet in question is not stable, he is well liked and for many years well respected but due to health issues should not be practicing any longer... but too many high ups have turned a blind eye. So the vet instead of sctaching the horse and walking away, choose to 'dig out the problem'... he litterally dug out a fist and half sized whole in the horse's neck... muscle, tissue and the small lump, to the point that he could put is fist in the hole he had made. At this point in time we had (a few days before) chose to distance ourselves from this horse... we could not change his plight, and no one would help him... not the vets, the racing commission, nor the local spca, so we could do nothing... but in walks the vet asking if we could hold Tattoo... my husband at this point did not know what had happened, thinking maybe it was just a case of a joint injection, or some other thing... when he saw the hole, he did not know what else to do.. he held the horse while the vet 'finished up'... all the while getting madder and madder at the owner, the vet and life in general. I came in near the end and just about died... it was a horrific sight in a long list of horrible things I have seen in my time. And all needless. When the vet left, he knew the owner could not and would not care for the horse, he asked if Joe and I could 'look after it', we said we would. The owner left us to it for two weeks. When my husband had himself under control after a time, he asked the owner what he had been thinking. He said the vet was a proffessional, so he couldn't say anything, my husband said what about the horse??? The onwer said, "You can't tell a proffessional how to do anything, that once he decided to to something that you 'had' to let him." My husband told him, "You are the last line of deffence for this horse... no matter who it is with that you are disagreeing!!!" Then we told him we were done... he begged us to help him some more, we did for Tattoo, but we were not happy. Eventually it all came to a head, we offered the guy 4000.00 for horse that was as likely to die as to live... Tattoo has lived, but is still not a well horse... we love him, and have saved him... but the moral of this story, is yes the vet/the trainer in the case above did the damage, but the owner is the last live of defence for the horse.

The trainer should be in trouble for abuse, the owner does deserve some compenation-- IF she was not present at the time of the cruelty-- but ultimatly the onwer is reponsible for the care and maintance of the horse and responsible for where she sends the horse.

Cruelty is always wrong, punishment is always wrong, and lack of care and consideration is always wrong no matter who is the perpetrator of the action.!!!

Take care,

Deb McDaid

Oh yeah, and for those who mentioned not saying who they are... I never write anything that I will not put my name to, the only time I think that nameless is okay is if it is a minor.

Tiocfaidh Ar La Stable

barnfrog · Advanced

While I agree the handler should know what and how to ask, there can be situations where horses are horses and can over react. For me, the previous training set up this perfect storm. The horse could previously hide from the effects of the bit from low side reins on the bars by closeing/lowering/breaking at the thrid verebrae (and ridden this way also). Incorrect basis for future training, but not as problematic. When all of a sudden the s.r. were too tighten to allow for this, the horse exploded.

Should a trainer know this can happen? Yes imho. And some horses can do slip/fall/even go over w/o side reins. Perhaps it takes doing 100s of horses to know this, or seeing it happen to others. Could the owner have stepped in and stopped this (as she was there)? Yes. Were the training devices applied problematics?? Who doesnt start with s.r. onto a lunge caveson? Very few people do, that progressive training knowledge is all but gone. It is 'get er done' (meaning flexion). Yes there is blame on HUMANS, and its ALL THE WAY AROUND, not just with CP. Anyone consider WHY the horse needed to come to another trainer given the owner own site states she does greenies to fei? The owner list initial possible 'trainers' imho shows the lack of depth about what it takes to train young horses, since two of the choices did not start youngsters but were wining riders of already started ones.

So, what is abuse? It's not just whipping and blood for sure. But how many people go 'over the top' with training methods? Many. Without basic horsemanship, and KNOWLEGE as to what that is, it will continue. How many bit up a horse to cause flexion? Or become the antithesis and 'tree huggers of softness' (no limits/no methods/no bits/etc) which is JUST as dangerous for horses....to have NO leader.

And futher does ONE suit have and impact on another? Perhaps it speaks to character. But guilt by association does not prove one suit. Each rests on their own merit or lack of it. To be hung out w/o all the facts is not fair either. Just mho (and with no particular fondess for anyone...except the horse...what a waste of horseflesh from breaking to broken).

barnfrog · Advanced

And now the excuse for that: http://www.wfsb.com/story/17654858/police-investigate-possible-horse-dragging-incident-after-neighbors-complain We are BEYOND poor horsemanship and uneducated handlers/owners/trainers.